Natty

My thoughts: It would have to be a big game, because without the Sorrows you are still spending like 30 points. However, a big game means more enemies and it means that they can't spread out as much to avoid this. This strategy looks like it can take out about half the table at one go, and still leave you will Pandora, A Stitched Together, Hamelin, and the original Pere Ravage to kill stuff with, so it's not like it is an all or nothing. Watch out for stuff that can Push your doppelganger. If they can get her away from your sorrows before they activate, it wont work. You may need to use some Pandora ninja action to take out any models like the Dead Rider before you do this. Or at least make them be falling back (with her trigger) before you start the nuke fest.

These are the things I think about instead of working. Crew: Pandora Doppelganger Stitched Together Hamelin Pere Ravage (recruited since he is height 1 through Hamelin) lots of Sorrows. Activate the Doppelganger. Copy copy Pandora's ability to give Woes in base contact her (0) actions and then copy the Stitched Together's ability to not die. The Woes then activative a use the Doppelganger's (0) action to Copy the Doppelgangers ability to use two (0) actions. Then they use their second (0) action to copy the stitched together's not die ability. You now have a block of unkillable minions. Use Hamelin get the doppelganger further up the field (and drag the unkillable Sorrows with it), and then use Pere/Stitched to kill your own Doppelganger, giving it reactivate. Now activate Pandora, and bounce around the field trying to make as many opposing minions get -defense flips as possible. Feel free to use up soulstones to make the cast irresistible because any minion with a -def flip is soon to be very, very, very, dead. The doppelganger then copies Pere's explode ability and Pandora's casting expert. Move the Doppelganger into position and drag the Sorrows with you, and then explode the Doppelganger, killing stuff around you and killing the Sorrows as well. Use Casting expert to explode again, doing more damage. If you haven't had to use Hamelin, after the Doppelganger's initial explosion you could use Hamelin to walk her a little further and get her into a better position via obey. Then activate your sorrows (since they have stitched together's ability to not die and have reactivate since the doppelganger killed them). The sorrows will still be in base contact with the doppelganger because of (0) link. Use the (0) action from the doppelganger (through the copied Pandora's ability) to copy Pere Ravages explode, and then use the second (0) action (because the doppelganger's ability to use two (0)'s was copied earlier) to copy a higher movement speed, nimble, fast, a movement ability or casting expert (whichever you happen to need and is nearby). If there is stuff still alive nearby, just explode twice or three times (if you copied casting expert). If there isn't, then make a move action or two and explode a little further from the doppelganger. ...and BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM. You have the biggest bomb ever. Each 3 cost sorrow that you can afford to buy turns into an unkillable mini-nuke. Using the nurse to make rocket dogs is so 2009. This is 2010, baby, and we have a whole new book full of crap to exploit!!!

In a Pandora army, the Doppelganger does everything! Best model ever for Pandora. --------------- Also, everyone forgot to mention her amazing defensive capabilities. On numerous occasions I have copied the highest defense around, gone into defensive stance, and then moved into postion or copied a defensive ability. Then you just stand there, keeping everything in melee and being unkillable. If you are a Pandora player, the obvious thing is to copy the high defense, copy emptional trauma, then go defensive stance right in the middle of their stuff. You just gotta watch out for Wp based attacks when you do that. Also, keep an eye out for any melee master models like the cerebus or rogue necromancy. The Doppelganger can turn into the most deadly minion ever with melee master and teddy's damage line.

I never keep Pandora in a big block of troops. She is all about speed. I keep her moving around the entire table the whole game. I think the only game I've ever had with Pandora where she did stay with her troops was a match against Perdita. Perdita scares Pandora. Scares her bad.

Perdita is good because everything about her is good. She really has no clear weaknesses. She has amazing movement, high defense, and immune to influence. She has fast and decent (not overpowered, but decent) damage. Unless you are playing against Pandora (who ignores immune to influence), she is basically one of the Hardest masters in the game to kill. The REAL reason that Perdita is a top tier master is all of that stuff I just said combined with the fact that Guild has some of the best and cheapest minions of any faction. Nino is basically the best minion in the game, and there are tons of other great choices for good prices too. The other guild masters have those same choices, but they all die very very easily (I've never played Hoffman, so I'm not sure how easy he dies), and losing your master often means losing the game. Sure, you will never do the melee damage that Lady Justice does, or the blast damage that Criid does, but you can do almost as that much damage, and stand toe to toe with basically anything in the game while you do it. Also, don't necessarily listen to the above posters about using Obey on your own guys all the time. Yes, obey on your own guys is good, and obey on opponents guys is good, but Perdita herself is amazing, and often you will be better off just getting another attack or movement in. Of course, that obey on your totem or Abdulla should be giving Nino lots of extra actions anyway.

Did this ever get officially resolved by the Rules Marshalls? I remember there being tons of arguments about the whether voracious rats could cancel out things that were closer to the dying model, and how exactly the ability interacted with the RoE (which I tried to stay out of because it was across like 6 million threads and I didn't have much of an opinion since I could see it being read either way).

There are plenty of instances where a master can be played incorrectly or his crew can be purchased incorrectly. Sure, there is a lot of variability in the game, and the Dreamer has tons of choices of what to do with his crew but I stand by my position that the glass cannon masters need max soulstones. A single soulstone on one of the glass cannons is a huge benefit. A stoulstone on Chompy turns that low ram into a high ram for some damage and a free attack. A soulstone on Lady Justice turns that hit against her into a riposte on the opponent. A soulstone on the Vik turns that miss into a hit that kills the opponent and draws you a free card. The list goes on and on. Now, with support masters, sure, you don't really need max soulstones because it isn't as important that they soulstone all the time. The glass cannons should be burning through soulstones like candy. That's not to say that the support masters shouldn't start with max soulstones. Honestly, I think that having max soulstones is just better with most of the masters out there. (A few like Somer Teeth or Zoraida don't really use soulstones all that often). For the glass cannons, though, it is a 100% must have. There is really no way I can see not taking max soulstones with Chompy. Ever.

I still believe that spirits can park inside of terrain (that link to the second thread someone posted doesn't seem to work for me so I'm not sure what it was about). But anyone who isn't inside of terrain and doesn't have a nightmare within 3 inches deserves to have his Dreamer killed. But remember that The Dreamer's ability only works if you could have targeted that Nightmare within 3 inches. Cassandra is so maneuverable that you should be able to position her so she can attack the Dreamer, but can't attack the nearby nightmare. Of course, if there are nightmares on several sides of him then that wont work. Be careful though, The Dreamer is sure to have 7 or 8 soulstones, and can use them to reduce wounds. Also, he is a spirit, so half damage from non-magic attacks. He may look killable with 2 defense and 3 wounds, but that goes a long way when you start burning soulstones to prevent damage.

Can't Colette switch places with a showgirl within 18 inches? So you could move up a showgirl, switch places with it, then switch places with a fresh showgirl, and give yourself reactivate. Then move that fresh showgirl (who is in the place where the first showgirl ended) up even further. Activate Colette, switch with that showgirl, then switch with Casandra. So Casandra would start her activation 18 inches outside of her deployment zone. Even if terrain was in your way, you could basically get anywhere on the board in turn 1.

Second that.

Like any of the glass cannon masters, The Dreamer would need max soulstones. Masters like the Viktorias and Lord Chompy bits can usually use a single soulstone to kill an opposing minion, but they are so breakable they also need those soulstones for defense. If you take less than 7 or 8 soulstones with a glass cannon, then you aren't playing that master correctly. Keep in mind though, you will probably be getting 5 soulstones from hiring 5 nightmares, so you only need to set aside 2 or 3 for Sgt Chomps. His ability doesn't let you go over the max of 8.

This game just doesn't seem balanced for big games or brawls. There are too many combos out there that would make the game just not fun (I'm looking at you Nekima+Lelu+Killjoy+Shaman). Or what about a Hamelin with so many rats that you have no place to get into base contact with him or his rat catchers? I don't particularly ever want to play a brawl. Stuff like Kirai and Nico summoning in 10 seishen and boatloads of Gaki by rekilling mindless zombies. What about Zoraida with doppelgangers, Hamelin, and a pigapult wiping out an entire army from 24 inches away with 5+ obey casts? This game is perfect for 30 or 35 soulstones imo. Any bigger than that is silly and the combos are just as silly.

Indeed. I just searched for it and couldn't find what you were talking about. Also, if I remember correct it says right in the FAQ that spirits can end their movement in impassable terrain.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Pandora should be bringing almost all physical damage minions and a doppelganger. Taking a bunch of Wp minions is just asking to get your butt kicked by a high Wp or stubborn crew. I can see taking 1 stitched together with Pandora mainly for the cover they provide though. That fog would be nasty against a ranged crew.

Sounds like a good way to get your Cassandra killed early on. But yeah, that would slow things down a turn or two for LCB. Might be good for completing objectives. Honestly though, most people playing the Dreamer will put him inside Terrain whenever possible. He is a spirit so he can just sit inside that tree or wall or rock and you wont be able to touch him because nothing will have LOS, and he is immune to blasts and AoE stuff.

Wierd Sketch says: If you go to the thread where he talks about not being able to target people with immune to influence, he corrects himself later on and mentions that you can target them, it is just that nothing happens and the spell fizzles.

You can target Teddy with a Wp based duel, it just fizzles. So if the Dreamer is within 3 inches of Teddy, Wp based duels are worthless.

Well, they were amazing for other lists as they were, and this change actually buffed them for non-Dreamer lists. The Dreamer, however, doesn't really care about the fog, since he drops stuff right on your head anyway. They had nice synergy with the Dreamer before, and now they lost that. Meh. Like I said; they are still viable. I am just whining that a really neat mechanism that I was looking forward to playing with got removed from the game.

I think that I just felt like burying and unburying them were part of the reason they existed, and that it was intentional, and their defining characteristic. Now they don't have that synergy with the dreamer they used to (or no more synergy than any other Nightmare, and in fact they are a lot better for most other Neverborn crews because the Dreamer doesn't have to worry about ranged attacks anywhere near as much as all of the other Neverborn crews). Also, I'm not saying they aren't good anymore, I'm just saying they took away the thing that made them so fun looking to play.

Second that

So... someone pointed out that on the new Stitched Together card, after his ability to avoid being killed goes off, he can't be sacrificed or buried. So he is going to die at the end of the turn no matter what. Is it just me, or did that completely ruin the model for anyone else? I doubt I'll even buy them now. The bury/unbury so they never die was most of their appeal to me and I was really looking forward to getting to play them. Before, they seemed like a model that took some skill to play, with the opponent needing to know to ignore them, or bury them, or sacrifice them, or kill any models that could bury them instead, just to make sure they don't come back. While the Dreamer had to make sure they died after activation to give them reactivate, make sure to keep activations in the right order to rebury them, make sure to keep the right models alive and nearby to rebury them, all the while keeping them in a position where they are between the opponents ranged models and your own so the fog is useful. Now... they are a walking fog machine that explodes. Lost all of the appeal to me. Not to mention they have a low wp and are entirely wp based. The whole point of the model was burying and reburying them. Now that's gone. Pfffffffttt... I spit upon you, errata'ed Stiched Together. I spit upon you!

Yeah. Maybe Ratty was just misreading the old errata on buried models. He scared me! Made me think there was a new errata. Not being able to unbury models that got hit with Pine Box would be silly considering that The Dreamer does exactly that in the story arc.

What? Where? Did I miss the new Errata or something? And considering that the Dreamer's burying effects don't have an end time, it must be worded differently than that because then you could never unbury your models.

I think the point of the list was he wanted a long range list. So, instead, drop one trapper and get the 6ss. Keep Hans and SoC fast. That's most of your long range damage. Can't have a long range Vik list without Hans! Also, consider Von Schill. He is a beast.

Drop a model or two and start with more soulstones. Any Viktoria list that doesn't start with 7 or 8 soulstones is not playing to its potential. Viktoria + Soulstones = dead stuff everywhere Viktoria - Soulstones = dead Viktoria Trust me, those 5 soulstones will outperform any 5 point model you could field.