Natty

If you obey an enemy model, there is no model on the table that is considered friendly to it. This has been ruled on in several threads in the resolved rule section. You have to think of it as a little army as its own.

If you are asking what I think you're asking, no, Pandora's trigger doesn't make you take 2 wounds (are you saying 1 from the cast and 1 from the lost moral duel?). I believe the new wording makes the original resist count as losing a moral duel. It isn't a whole new duel loss. The new wording says "and it counts as losing a moral duel". I assumed the "it" is the original failed resist that you lost, not a whole new duel.

Haha. No thanks. She is powerful enough as it is.

Sorry for the rambling response but I wasn't 100% sure what the question was so I figured I'd cover all the bases. Also: There are no stupid questions! Everyone had to learn the game at some point, even the developers. You used the basic Malifaux forum font and color, therefore your question was a good question. (If, for instance, you posted in a bright color and enlarged your text, I would have, as usual, skipped your post altogether and never read anything that you posted).

Every time Pandora wins an opposed Wp duel, she gets to push 4". Every time an opponent within 12" loses a wp duel, they lose 1 wound. So: If Pandora casts Pacify/Ignite, it is an opposed Wp->Wp duel, and Pandora will get a 4" push is she wins. If the opponent loses that duel, they then lose 1 wound. If Pandora casts a spell, her initial cast is not an opposed duel. It is not a Wp duel at all; it is a Ca duel. Neither emotional trauma nor fading memory affects the result of this initial cast. When someone tries to resist Pandora's casts, it is a resist duel. This resist duel is a simple Wp duel (since all of Pandora's spells are Rst: Wp). If they fail that resist, they take a damage from emotional trauma. However, this was not an opposed duel, so Pandora does not get to push. When Pandora casts project emotions, the target and everyone under the blast will all take their own Wp resist, and take 1 wound if they lose that resist. Pandora does not get to push because she did a Ca duel and they did a Wp resist. There was no opposed Wp duel. Anytime someone tries to target Pandora, they first have to make an opposed Wp->Wp duel. If Pandora wins the duel, she gets a 4" push. If the opponent loses the duel and they were within 12", then they take 1 wound. Hope this clears it all up!

Hah. I know it happened, but I can't believe anyone ever though Pandora was underpowered. I remember reading the book for the very first time, loving Pandora because of being able to play little creepy kids, but almost not picking her up because she seemed to me to be so ridiculously overpowered. The only reason I decided to get her was when I read the errata that they had changed ignite/pacify so you couldn't hit your own guys. I thought maybe that brought her down to a playable level. I was so wrong... Viva le Dreamer!

Yeah, I had to just thread-o-mancy the whole thread to see if anyone had tried it out yet. I really want to know how it went.

I'm thread-o-mancing this. Has anyone tried making the Natty Sorrow Bomb yet? I'd love to hear about it.

Not as dirty as the official Natty :explode:sorrow:explode:bomb:explode:! https://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16777&highlight=sorrow+bomb I still wonder if anyone has ever done that to someone. I certainly don't hate my friends enough to try it.

Truth. Not that I don't use my crew to their fullest, but most of the time they are just there are a distraction and for positioning purposes to let Pandora be really really mean. Like I've said before, most games I wouldn't even waste my high cards on my crew, I'd just let their abilities wiff or watch them die if I flipped low and save my cards for Pandora. When you feed Pandora every single high card in your hand and start with max soulstones, she puts out quite a hurting. That 11 that you just used to do 2 more damage with a Silurid could save Pandora's life. That crow that you just used to lure someone with Kade could have been used to make an enemy fall back. Pandora is a gross annoying machine of ultimate destruction.

I have only played Zoraida on a couple occasions, but when I did, I definitely regretted not taking some big beasty of my own to Obey and give extra actions to. If I played her again I'd take a Hans or a Nekima or a Mature Nephilim or something. Unfortunately, you can't obey Bad Juju so I don't really like him.

that and that are both true Also, I always vote for doppelganger as the best minion for Pandora. I'd recommend picking it up.

Pfffffffffftttttt. Neverborn pride baby... NEVERBORN PRIDE!!!!! I have only ever once played a non-neverborn master and that was when my friend wanted me to play his Viks crew so he could see what tricks I would use.

Pandora doesn't need to survive your whole crew to survive the turn, she just needs to survive against 1 or 2 attacks because then she can push 4 inches after each one. Perdita is really the only thing that Pandora fears, and even Perdita can't really take her down in a single turn unless Pandora is playing poorly. If Pandora is standing right near Perdita, she deserves to die. Pandora should be set up far enough away from Perdita that Perdita will need to spend an action or two setting up the shots, and then Pandora burns a soulstone for damage prevention. That's why I say to always play for VP when fighting Pandora because even if you make a Pandora hunting crew, there is a good chance you will never catch her. So unless you have assassinate and HAVE to catch Pandora, I would make a crew based around not being afraid of Pandora and winning by VP. Have killing Pandora be second in your mind next to winning the game. ----------------------- I've only ever played two games with my Pandora against a Perdita, won them both, and never once let Perdita shoot Pandora. Perdita is as vulnerable to Pandora's fall back as Pandora is to Perdita face shooting. That's why I say Sonnia is the best defense against Pandora. Sonnia doesn't fear Pandora at all and can really mess her up almost as well as Perdita can.

I agree. Dementia should be changed to "enemy" model. It is cheesy as all hell. Well, let's agree on one thing, that the following list would be nasty: Pandora Doppelganger Poltergeist Lelu/Lilitu Stitched Together Depending on playstyle, you could switch Stitched with a Madness. I'd probably stick with a Stitched though. A good mix of Wp duels and physical. Good defensive abilities with the Stitched Together's fog. The ability to complete most objectives. Counters to most other crews out there. If you had a tournament setting where you couldn't change your list based on strategy, something like this is probably what I'd play. I vote this list as the most well rounded Pandora crew!

Yeah, I think my "gonna lose" wording was a bit strong. Especially since I've never even played a Von Schill crew nor have I ever even seen one played. None of my friends play them because none of us really like the models. I think the flame dude is the only cool looking Freicorps model.

I've only had to play against Perdita twice with Pandora. Most of the game I spent making sure that Pandora was out of range of Perdita and playing defense and saving all my high crows for one massive attack. Then, when I had 3 high crows in my hand, I incite/pacify/dementia over to Perdita and try to make her fall back, use a high crow, soulstone it, and hope my soulstone is better than hers. Then do that again and again until she falls back. I've never played against the freicorps at all, let alone with Pandora, but crews like that is why I always recommend taking a melee heavy crew (Silurids, Teddy, Kade, etc) because a wp heavy crew is just gonna lose. Having to face an entire army with stubborn is gonna make the game really hard to win. ------------- Another note: I have never taken them because I retired Pandora before their models finally got released and I try not to proxy, but I think that Lelu/Lelitu look REALLY powerful with Pandora. The combo of melee power with some backup wp duels seems amazing. Throw in a stitched together for the fog to cover the doppel and it seems like it would be far better than teddy+kade.

My tournament Pandora list (which is to say it is NO fun and almost unfair to play against) is: Pandora Poltergeist Doppelganger Rest of the points in Silurids The main thing being to use the totem to activate the Silurids last, have them leap across the field getting insane amounts of attacks, then the doppelganger gives you initiative the next turn and you companion them all again. It is almost impossible to stop because of the ridiculous range on the Silurids (They can charge a model 18 inches away and get a free attack if they hit, then the second turn they get 2 attacks on the model each with a free attack if they hit). Now, the Silurid alpha strike should target anything on the table that presents any kind of threat to Pandora + Doppelganger. Then, I honestly never care if the Silurids are wiped out because you have elminited any threat to Pandora, and she can pick apart the rest of their crew. As a final note, this crew has never failed to go 8-0 in the about 10ish times I've played it. It is SO f-ing boring sometimes that it caused me to retire Pandora after a tournament director asked me to never play Pandora again. The reason this crew is so boring is that lets say you have 4 silurids, you activate them all at the end of your turn, make 4 leaps, 4 charges, do 4 attacks, 4 free attacks, get initiative, activate 4 silurids, do 8 attacks, get 8 free attacks... You make about a billion attacks in between your opponent taking a single action. The attacks go on so long and are so repetitive even I'm getting bored doing them because there is no change up, it is the same claw/bite claw/bite claw/bite over and over. On top of that, the threat range on the tactic is 20 inches (9 inch leap, 9 inch charge, 2 inch reach) so even a really good player has a hard time stopping it. Basically, I recommend NEVER running silurids with poltergeist so that your friends will stay your friends. Now, my "fun" Pandora crew was always changing. The staples were: Pandora Doppelganger Poltergeist Those were a given. Honestly, those three together are a force to be reckoned with, and I just changed up the rest of the crew based on the strategy I got. I often played with Kade and Teddy just because I LOVE the Kade model. Little kid with a bear and knife go!

...oh yeah, and let me reinforce the idea that you need to play for VP and not play to slaughter Pandora. This isn't Warhammer; you can win even if you haven't killed a single model.

Oh, and much like Karn said, Stubborn is your friend, and Papa Loco is bad bad bad against Pandora. (Although not quite as bad as he is against Zoraida.) I am thinking that the worst possible guild matchup for a Pandora player would be Sonnia and a bunch of stubborn family (maybe a few witchling stalkers in there for good measure). Also like Karn said though, Pandora players can field pretty much anything and not just wp duels. I myself used to field almost entirely melee minions with Pandora for exactly the kind of reason that a stubborn crew with counterspell could easily destroy a wp based crew. That being said though, the family are still amazing and some of the best point cost models in the game even if you aren't relying on stubborn as a big defense bump.

Pandora can easily move the entire length of the board in single turns (incite/pacify and dementia on herself). A Pandora player is not going to let you pull off any Blind Justice combos very easily. One of the BIG BIG BIG flaws with playing Lady J against Pandora is her high weapon damage and self loathing. Pandora/Candy/Totem will make you hit yourself with that sword. The worst Pandora can do to Perdita/Sonnia is ping them down slowly and make them fall back, but those two masters will come back in a turn or two to fight again. Lady J will destroy herself with her own sword very quickly. Sure Blind Justice is good again Pandora, but if I was playing Pandora I would much rather play against a Lady J than either of the other two.

I like a large cache on Pandora and I LOVE her totem. After my first few games with her I don't think I've ever played without 7 or 8 soulstones. They are just so handy to both staying alive and making irresistible fall back triggers. Her totem can cause a lot of wp duels, but most often I just used it as a positioning distraction with 7 defense. You can't really ignore it and 7 defense means they have to waste some resources killing it. If they don't waste the resources killing it, then it can start causing huge area AoE wp duels, which is just plain gross when you have emotional trauma and a doppelganger also copying emotional trauma. It's also nice to make your own guys go last when you want to manipulate the activation order and double activate something by going first the next turn (since doppelganger means you usually win initiative). After I used it for that a couple times though, I found it really cheesey and stopped doing it. MAINLY THOUGH!!!! MAINLY ---- It can cast dementia on your own Pandora. Then every time she takes an action, she has to take a wp test. When she wins the wp test, she gets a free 4 inch push. AMAZING!!! You get to add a ton of free movement that way. Note though, be careful casting it unless you have a few midrange cards you don't mind burning in case the flip fails. If you cast it when all you have is really high or really low cards, you can mess yourself up. Don't go anywhere without your totem! Love it.

I agree with Karn that alps aren't that great in a Pandora army. I dislike sorrows quite a bit but I would take them over Alps any day.

I think Karn and I have always disagreed about Sorrows. I for one don't like them. When I played Pandora, I almost always saved every single high card for defense on Pandora, and definitely saved every single crow for Pandora's trigger. Pandora is a force. An unbelievably destructive force, but if something makes it past her defenses she is a wet noodle waiting to die. I have gone numerous games where I played maybe 1 or 2 cards per turn and just stared at high cards sitting in my hand because I knew I needed to save them for Pandora. I'd honestly rather keep a high card in my hand for Pandora next turn than use it now on a sorrow and maybe get a spell to hit. Sorrows have low cast and for one of their abilities, need a crow to work. To get their abilities off takes either a lucky flip or a card from your hand, and even then it is easily resistable since most things have a higher wp than they have cast. Also, they are unbelievably breakable, easy to hit, and offer a target that allows you to put blasts onto Pandora. So if there is anything on the opposing team with blast templates, they are actually a bad model to have attached to Pandora. I, for one, like to keep my Pandora right up in my opponents face and dare them to attack her. She is one of the hardest things in the game to kill and your opponent not only will waste resources doing it, they takes wounds when they fail and give her a free push. If you have sorrows attached to Pandora, you just plain can't use this tactic. Your opponent will attack the sorrows every time. So, keeping all that in mind, sorrows have one AMAZING use in my opinion, and that is exactly like Karn said, where you link several of them to Pandora, then push her up to the enemy, take a walk action, and have them all zip up to you. Then you go crazy with Project Emotions and start doing insane amounts of wounds. The problem with all that is that it is a one trick pony. If it doesn't work the first time, all those sorrows are extremely dead. Not much is going to keep a sorrow alive for a full turn when it is right in the middle of the enemy. A good player will see 3 sorrows linked to Pandora and keep their guys a little more spread out, so if you walk with Pandora to bundle them up, then you are only hitting one, maybe 2 guys with all those sorrows, and your opponent can easily take them down. At the same time though, you may be able to pick off the guys in the fringes if they spread out too much. On to part 2 why I hate sorrows - They are insignificant!!! You can't complete your schemes with them. A huge part of many games requires you to have significant minions. The majority of your games will be harder to win if half of your dudes are insignificant. So to sum up, (in my opinion), sorrows are just about only good for the sorrow bomb, where you walk Pandora into the middle of a bunch of guys and go crazy. It's not a tactic that I like, but hey, it can definitely work REALLY REALLY well sometimes. I, personally, like to just copy emotional trauma on the doppelganger and settle for dealing 1 or 2 wounds on failed wp tests. That's enough for me =)

Teddy bear swarm... teddy bear swarm. 3 or 4 little bears that can swarm together or apart. They would be like SPAs, but not as destructive and way harder to kill. Then, you make them dolls so they work with Collidi, nightmares so they work with dreamer, and have them able to switch spots with a Kade, so they work with woes. Perfect.