Omadon

Psst. Rhonin never, ever, eevverr need to walk. Just use Run Through for the same AP, and just opt to not attack something if you don't have any enemy targets nearby.

You need to make a descision early on of weather or not to control him, or commit to killing him. Half-spent effort on either will ruin you. If the Levi player is clever, and takes a dog for another waif, then that will cause problems. However, that said. I do not grasp what you're worried about. You bastards have restore natural order >.> Levi can't cast anything too damaging in melee, so if you can lock him in combat with justice then that shuts down the spell that ruins everybody, and means that Alyce has a chance of pelting him in the head. The most he can do in a full round of casting, while not recently summoned, while in combat is nine, or eleven if he doesn't use Death's Lessons (Which he would, so the point is moot) So Justice can pretty much tank him. That said. I cannot stress this enough. Do Not Let Him Touch You. If he swings in melee. Make him miss - do whatever you can to make him miss. The above in mind, I personally (As a main Levi player) think that locking him in melee with Justice and for the most part not killing him is the best idea. However - only do this if you are up on stones and are confident that he can't land a hit on you in melee. If you can keep him on the brink of death but not quite there, and be there to potentially soak a hit from Alyce if she tries to kill him, then if he runs out of decent cards trying to find an out to this, then the following turn he'll be starved for cards, and by definition - you'll be in range for Restore Natural Order to hit both waifs, as they need to be within 10 of him. However - the above is ballsy. If he does touch you in melee, then you're probably going to take 12-a healing flip. Which isn't healthy. That in mind - a safer option is to keep him there with the Executioner, as death on recoil from him will be almost certain, unless Levi wants to waste a stone. The Executioner, on the other hand, is suceptable to just being nuked, so he won't hold him there nearly as long. Neither option is dramatically better than the other to be honest, it's mostly subjective to the situation/your stones V his stones/what else he's hired. /rant

I'm probably just parroting a few oppinions here, but I'd like to add - pretty much everybody at my store that plays (Bar one guy, who lives with me ) owns his own copy of the rulebook, or is planning to in the not too distant future, and if you ask me. With this game taking it's first real steps, I'd be surprized if they put valuable resources into sorting out a new book with old content when they could be putting it into making a new book with new content. Also - right, get this. The information you want that's different is in the errata document. Print that off, staple it to your current book, and vuala - you have an up to date rulebook. Who would really read a .PDF version anyway? I can't imagine stopping a game to run up to a PC and look something up. Well - I can, but I wouldent want to. And having the information that you need that's different interwoven into a whole sodding rulebook so that printing it out requires you to buy a new toner cartridge would be somewhat prohibitive.

mm. A thousand appologies. Shall limit myself to mad arm-waving when trying to add emphasis in future ^^

http://www.wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=10495 Pay. *slap*. Attention. *slap* Also, no. I like my postit notes.

Yes, and then you lose killjoy's ability to turn up anywhere, and spend the rest of the game a card down? Why do people think this is a good idea? Killjoy is a total fucking bullet magnet, and he's horrendously slow until blood price starts working, and when it's working, you don't want him anywhere near your models. Forcing him to miss Levi/a waif if he accidentally charges is actually pretty difficult when the contents of your hand is a valuable resource, and you're discarding to control him. Half the point of Killjoy is that he can spawn Anywhere. He's not just some undead heavy, he's a nuke, and as such you do not want to detonate him in your own fucking back yard. Duh. ¬_¬

The point of the dog is to kill it early game and have another waif, without having to use Entropic Transformation in range of the opponent, as it takes alot out of Levi, especially if he has to cast it when he's only got one up - that means that the waif you place is going to be up the board, and the other one will be the only thing they really need to hunt for on that turn. Furthermore, you can't exactly "Offtank" anything. Sure, he hits the board early, but he's bloody slow. Early game, planning on only having one waif is a problem. Sacrificing either Levi or a Waif later on means that he's actually mortal, and doing it early means that killjoys in your face, charging your shit. Although, tbh - blood price doesn't start up til turn three, so I suppose you could just dump him onto the board early, and then position him however you like. Meh - I just prefer him as something to worry about later in the game. Having things with slow to die out on the board puts alot of worry on people killing your shit. If you're going to take another big lump of points, tbh - I'd go for Betty any day over Juju.

Then he's point blank next to a hollow waif/alyce? Levi isn't very fast, and if you're close enough to the opponent to be summoning Killjoy and not charging your shit, then you're either doing something very wrong, or wasting his AP. This is what we have undead models with slow to die for

To be honest, I would only consider it once they'd released everything they've planned to release from it. I figure a core book some point after then would be an idea, but not before they release the next one. New content > Old. Until then, I'll make do with postit notes

Would I also be correct in assuming that Levi was the reason that the nurses weren't undead? Or was that accidental ^^ Levi + Combat Drugs kindof breaks the game.

To be honest, intent of rules can fuck themselves - we're gamers. Breaking these sort of things is what were for. In short though, my arguement stands - the less random this game is, the better. You can, in some ways, account for a black joker. Draw it at some point and you can hold it to prevent that fate. However - you cannot account for the red. There is litterally nothing you can do about it. At some point, somewhere, at least once a game. Something that shouldent die, more than likley will. No matter how rare it is, no matter how low the % chance of it happening is, it will destroy the flow of the game. I came to this game to avoid the pure randomness of dice rolls, and this is the most backwards step I think it's taken in my mind in a long time. That said - it seems a little weird. The feel I got from most of the errata was that the game was moving away from the unavoidable. Things like Master of Malifaux or Bullet Bending made things difficult/impossible to prevent. I liked that they went. Please god don't compensate by adding a random unpredictable death to every game I play >.> EDIT: Just had a thought. How about a compromise - Red Joker would work on -flips, but wouldent flip an extra card on damage, it would just work as a severe damage. That's managable, and doesn't trivialize defensive abilitys nearly as much as it does in it's current state.

Right, untill recently - we've been playing at my store as though that didn't happen, and looking at it, I think I really prefer it that way. The idea that having hard to wound 2 and having a solid defensive flip could potentially screw you really doesnt feel right. One of the reasons I like this game is the apparent abscense of dice-esque randomness. Having the Black around to worry about is one thing, but you can account for that - if you draw it, you can hold it. Suffer the loss of a card but avoid potential oblivion. The opponent's Red however - isn't something you can account for. What do other people think? I'm aware that bad things are clearly supposed to happen, but I feel it kindof violates the pace of the game when something attacking a killjoy/seamus/whatever arbitrarily benefits from their defensive mechanisms. I think that getting hold of, and forcing through a Red on somebody is a really solid play, but by the looks of it - it'll often be better to just leave it to fate.

I actually think you're wrong here, and the intent you're applying to it isn't necessarily the one had in mind. I'm pretty sure it's "intent" is to do damage. That said, theres nothing that says hard to wound or any of the other damage changing things do/don't apply. The only possible source of confusion here is that the spell is checking the weapons power for it's damage, and thus may not be classed as magical damage. It doesn't have a minus flip built into it so it can't be cheated, it has the line of text "This cannot be cheated" in it, so that it can't be cheated EDIT: Furthermore, saying that about the red joker applies to pretty much everything. Not just this spell. On a totally unrelated note - I've been playing as though only the black overwrote everything, and I think I much prefer it that way. The idea of getting Red off -4 flips feels too random. You shoulden't potentially suffer from stacking defensive abilitys. Hm - need to address this in a more public forum.

How do you ever plan on summoning Killjoy? If you do it with a waif, then he's like.. Right There, in your face. Taking two big guys is totally pointless - they do the same thing. JuJu's only real use is specifically for trasure hunt anyway. Tbh - Killjoys pretty damn expensive for that many points anyway. Cut down on big things, take a dog, and run Betty Furthermore. Yus! Vindication! <3

I had thought as much - was wondering if the spell simply checked the weapon for it's damage band. Ohwell! It wasnt particularly brilliant anyway ^^ I kindof lost the point of the spell half way through the post when I read that you couldent cheat it reguardless.

Personally, I think you're all bloody mad. For one thing, soulstones are designed to be totally OP - without them, masters can't really apply much more pressure than adverage joe model. I really believe that it's just a difference of viewpoint here thats the problem - I see one of the core mechanics to playing this game well to be either playing to pressure somebody out of soulstones, or play in such a way that means you don't really need them. Either are key parts of the game. Devaluing them won't make the game better, it'll just make it different. Anyway. Onto the main part of my rant. Sonnia Crid is compleatly fucking amazing. The reasons why are -endless-. Anybody ever seen what happens when you leave a witchling stalker close to something? They're alot more resistant to her AoE's than most things. Being able to just do six damage to things without them having any sayso whatsoever is horrible. If you can drop a severe on a witchling stalker, then almost everything around it takes three from the explosions. Explosive Burst can chain off about 10 inches worth of destruction. The most unavoidable damage she can drop on people is 9. Niinee Damage. Without a specific thing like armour/evasive or stones to burn, that just kills so many models in this, and from what - upto 20 odd inches away? To more than one model? I really don't see what people are complaining about ^^ (EDIT: Got a bit excited - some of the above paragraph is under the impression that the 2 inches applies to every blast marker, so they can snake off in a line. cba to go back and edit - just wanted to correct myself before somebody else did.) Furthermore - given the obvious 8SS, she's almost totally indifferent to suit coverage. She just gets better with suits she can use. She turns any high-card into a mystical cannon, and has a solid application for low tomes. Even if you don't want to use her stones to explode stuff, putting her in melee with a caster compleatly ruins them. Admitedly she's not designed for being in melee with non casters, but thats what every other bloody model she has is for. That said - what's really going to engage her? Lay out stalkers in a net infront of her, and whatever passes through that wall of models gets blasted by spells bouncing off the rest. Also - give her Hamelin and an Essence of Power, and she becomes even more of an artillery platform (Her own totem is shite. One of the few models I will say that is truly pointless in this game) It gives her the oppertunity to actually be on posetive flips against things with hard to wound 2, which is otherwise mostly impossible for casters that don't want to waste AP on channeling. This thing in mind, if a turn begins where you're in range of Sonnia, and you don't get initiative, then you're basically dead. Very little survives chaincast 8CA flame bursts. Furthermore! Get this. The totem has Tomes in it's base cast ^^ It can cast eeveerrythinngg. Means she doesnt need to waste herself on casting wall. She can activate - unload on somebody, and then companion it to pop a wall in the way. Also - Hamelin gives her solid coverage for Masks, as it's just been clarified that his growing command can doublecast obey. Which in turn gives you a solid use for Ravens in the form of the Executioner - that thing running around powered by Hamelin is compleatly nuts. Furthermore - killing off an executioner while weakening another model so that he can slow to die onto it and heal is fantastic. Really - the list of amazing things Sonnia can do couldent fit on one page Anybody who says she's crap is, in all honesty. Not very good at this game. I don't mean to offend people by saying this, I would simply like to encourage a more analytical point of view when declaring models to be crap. *CoughMassenCough* EDIT: FURTHERMORE! Minimum damage on a Witchling Stalker with Rams is four! Thats nuts for a what, four point model? On a CB of 6! 6 I tell you! Them/The Executioner give you a solid use for Rams, which makes the components for the list mentioned in this post to have a full house. Rams to Stalkers/Exe, Tomes to Her, Masks to Hamelin and Ravens to Stalkers/Exe. What more could you possibly want? EDIT MORE: AND SHE CAN USE SAMAEL BLOODY HOPKINS! Also - heres a thought that just popped into my head. Slow to Die triggers when somethings killed yeah? What if you "Kill" the executioner with Violation of Magic, and then he kills something and heals. Would the game recheck weather or not he left play before it made a witchling stalker? It's really janky I know, but I'm pretty sure the game mechanics/wording of it all permit it ^^

This is kindof in response to the hamelin stuff people are talking about at the moment. Right - here we go. Self Loathing "Select one of the target model's basic melee weapons. Target suffers a damage flip with that weapon that receives -. This damage flip cannot be Cheated." Now, does this count as a spell damage flip for the purposes of the Essence of Power's Empower ability?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and ask you to recheck that. Consideirng that Surge is an almost identicle trigger, but says "If the defender fails it's resist duel", whereas Disciplined Caster simply requires you to succesfully cast the spell? Furthermore - direct quote here. "The casting model wins the Duel and successfully casts the spell if it's total is equal to or greater than the Casting Cost and includes at least one of each suit listed in the TN. (Success)" By the way this is worded - the resist duel happens afterwards? the paragraph on Resistance Examples backs me up. "In the casting example above, Ramos successfully cast Electrical Fire against his target. Since Ramos' casting total was 20, the spell requires the target to win a DF->20 Resist Duel or suffer the spell's effects." It says nothing about the spell failing if they resist, just that they don't apply the effects. Sorry man, I think you're mistaken ^^

the arachnids work better with him than SPAs do What happens when you give one of them blessings and another reactivate? Blessings makes every hit of their melee mastering lunacy automatically paralize. Seriously. SPAs are not brilliant. They are a fortunate byproduct of killing things with Leveticus. Furthermore, I'd personally avoid playing Levi and Ramos together, as Ramos is sooo suit hungry. Levi's jack-of-all-trades nature kindof falls apart when some twat keeps stealing all of his tomes. I'd rather have the 10SS and freedom to spend every single point available to the game. Also - yes, Disciplined Caster triggers off sucessfully casting, I say this with the optimistic certainty of somebody who'se been playing it that way for the past three months, and wouldnet like to entertain the idea that he's wrong ^^

tbh, everythings safe with Levi. I'd even be tempted to drop those two and take a canine remains to murder for another waif. You get to win by attrition - whatever they leave exposed gets dragged across the map by belles, and then either gets savaged by any number of things. Death's Lessons/Disciplined Caster in mind, it's pretty easy to either land unnatural wasting/force them to SS to dodge it. Furthermore - if you feel you don't need the dog, but do need the stones, whenever you really, really need a spell to go through - if you're holding a high card, use lessons to stack the highest other card in the top three underneath something random, drop the highest thing you have in your hand and then soulstone safe in the knowledge that you arent going to pull crap. However, that said - in two master games, I really don't see the point in taking a second master. Three Canine Remains to make up the rest of the waifs, and then 10SS for the empty master slot. Noothiingg survives a trigger-happy Levi with stones to burn.

Bare in mind that the 4 you lose, you lose to gain an action point, which means instead of being in melee and making an attack, you get to charge instead Furthermore, just try Sybelle + 2 Belles and Killjoy with Levi/Alyce. The end result is horrible.

Right, this seems to me kindof silly. I always thought that the construction of a minefield of sorts was the point of them? Only being able to make them at close range, and then have them vanish makes them sooo easy to play around. Perhaps, if you think it's overpowered - tweak their SS cost to reflect how good you think they are as they were, and let them keep the minefield? Anyone else got any thoughts on this? I haven't played with them as much as I'd have liked to before making this thread, so most of this is unfounded, but it just feels like they're pointless now.

I don't quite think you're reading this right. In all honest, I hadn't when I said they'd got worse. Please note - the replacing model takes the highest remaining AP from among it's constituent models. Hence - it isn't necessarily slow when it's created. Drag three of them, don't activate one, and then fuse them into a ready-to-go desolation engine. Which - by the way; gains simultanious activation with them. So. Comprehensive buff much? You trade some inches of movement for an inbuilt simultanious activation, and extra AP. EDIT: All in all, you lose about 4 inches. It's the distance you don't get to move one of the SPA's so it keeps full AP, although, that said - if you want it to be exactly the same as it was before, you could move it the extra four, and land on somebody - but that means you can't charge. All of the changes here are posetive ones. Also - nos, they've always kept the wounds from the constituent SPAs? It's on the card That said. Killjoy is where it's at. Terrifying 13! A charge! Holy piss! Why arent more people screaming with joy at this? O_o

Personally, I really love hand-edited rulebooks. My current one sports a great number of postit notes. However, that one recently got tea spilt all over it (currsse youu dann!) so upon him purchasing a new one, I'm going to go over and stick in all the recent erratas, paying extra special attention to the lilith cuddles. ^^

So, basically, how I've been playing hasn't changed ^^ The only real effect is that you need to keep one of the SPAs on full AP, so we move a total of 10 inches less. Noott a big deal. Furthermore. *ahem* KILLJOY GOT TERRIFYING BLOODY 13! > HUZZAH! So, my list got better, all the SPA fanatics got worse, I'm happy ^^ Also, I think this sentence confirms that we can target him: