Haight

This absolutely works. It's a great option if you are playing Leveticus.

Doh. Yep. How i missed him (i was literally flipping through my book page by page) is beyond me. hard to miss the blue monstrosity.

Yep, i think its a matter of getting the waif, engine, and abominations ready to roll. Meanwhile, if you're cool with proxying, go ahead and get some games in. In my opinion, Leveticus once figured out is one of the most enjoyable masters to play. Unibrow Pimphand of doom, for the win. If you don't like proxies, you can roll with other impressive crews as well, as there is a plethora of models available to Leve as crew members because he can hire all constructs, undead, and soulless models. With the exception of the guild, this means he can at least dip his toe into each faction. Minion pool list: Guild: None. Ressers: Bete Noir, Crooked Man, Canine Remains, Flesh Construct, Madam Sybelle, The Hanged, Punk Zombies, Rotten Belles, Necro Punks. Arcanists: Gamin, Ice Golem, Joss, Steampunk Arachnid Swarm, Steampunk Arachnids. Neverborn: Bad JuJu, Hooded Rider, Teddy. Outcasts: Rusy Alyce, Hollow Waifs, Steampunk abomination, Desolation Engine, Killjoy. He has one of the largest and most varied lists of minions, and its only ever going to get larger with additional releases of models with the construct, undead, or soulless rule.

Ask Wyrd: Any speculation for when a follow up release is going to be ? I know the book just came out, but is wyrd planning a regular yearly release, or is it too early to tell yet ? Will the release life cycle be made to fit a regular schedule, or will the life cycle be more project to project on an ad hoc basis, with the nature of release cycle being driven by the nature of the scope of a particular expansion's size (for lack of a better phrase) ?

Sorry, should have been more clear - my point was relative to the playstyle, not having two totems (and that is not clearly indicated). What i meant as if you're like me and like to play nicodem in the rear with the gear as a decay healing /blast damaging tosser / reanimator / arise-ing monkey, then the student may have worth over two vultures to you, as it gets you another cast which can mean more opportunities to heal and damage, summon stuff, get zombies, and by proxy with decay, potentially force discards for your opponent and draws for you. @Psuedokinetic - Ah, oh well. Knew you couldn't change the order, but if you could look through that would have made him offensively more appealing. Well, look at it this way, the child is still quite useful for use on your own stuff to discard less than ideal cards for high value / desireable suit / both cards back into your hand. If you, early on, toss a bunch of high value cards on things then you know that they are in your discard - so 1-2 actions to get them back can mean that you increase the quality of your hand significantly. Bonus ? As Combined Efforts is a spell, you can auto fail the resist and make sure it goes off. Still a good piece for ressurectionist resource management. The more i think of it, the more i keep thinking there's got to be a combo that breaks this for ressers. I just haven't found it yet.

Sorry for the length of this: TL;DR version - the outcast totems are really good. Anyone that knows me from the WM boards will know that I have a penchant for writing a lot about wargaming. ----- Tried the student of conflict - i wasn't really a fan. Having "fast" was cool for an extra decay or reanimator, sure, but i'm not convinced it was worth 4 points - and it gets hard to give your master or other piece fast and have the student keep up with action. But that's based on one game - i definitely want to test it some more. RE: Outcast totems - Make no mistake, they are very, very good. The student of conflict is VERY wisely priced at 3 points (which means 4 for non outcasts), and is incredibly useful for masters like sonnia who would love nothing more than one more opportunity to sling out flame burst. Note too that "assist" is "target model". That's huge, and I think in further testing is going to prove really pivotal in the student being a very good potential choice for any list. Let's look at some interactions: With a flesh construct you could use assist to cancel the slow condition of the construct without having to ditch a card. If you don't mind ditching a card, but don't have a joker, you can use assist to give the thing fast, and then you will have 3 available actions, with a follow up move or move+attack per his rules. That makes a flesh construct a very fast and mean melee beater. Bete Noire - If something doesn't die within 3" of her, you can still "fast" her. I think we all know how asininely good a fast bete is. Punk Zombies - You could walk + flurry, or flurry + attack, or slice and dice three times (gross against low def models). Belles: This gets horrid quickly. You could potentially lure something 3 times with CA 8, all suits filled. Let that sink in. A walk 4 model just gave up 12" of counter-threat range for your stuff with help from the student. This is one of my favorite uses, frankly. I know people might say "Well why not just get another belle". Well if you're not playing seamus or sybelle, then the student offers you companion to your master, and there's a whole list of stuff that can also get assist. Crooked Man: Walk once, and lay down two shafted markers. That's some serious board control. Alternatively, walk and toss two cave ins, or toss three cave in. This also gets pretty sick quick (aside: Is the lack of a resist attribute in the crooked's man a typo? Has to be. Otherwise those things are silly good for 4 points). In my one game i had some issues keeping the student up with nico, but that's because i started using assist out of the gates, which was silly - i should have waited a turn, and then would have been in a better position. If you're like me and like to use nico as a corpse swiping via vulture, decay monkey, and casting other spells in the rear as able, then the student really helps out nicodem. It can equate to 4 actions for him, which with vultures, can mean a gigantic arsenal of decays, rigor mortis, or reanimator, with an action or two to spare for fogs. I have a hunch i just used the student poorly in my first game. Note too that the student has the ability to remove insignificant from models, which is pretty useful in scenario play. Camp a model on an objective, and keep him safe with fog, and then with one of your last activations use the students 10" total threat on Combined Efforts to remove insignifcant from the piece, and turn it into a scoring piece. Handy - particularly with fast models like canines. The students melee is straight up average in comparison to other totems, and magical extension with 3 CA no suit is questionable for ressers, but its not without use - and note that with magical extension you are able to use a soulstone, so technically speaking, in hail mary situations, you could use a soulstone to change the starting total. MCM: Dissection - makes the student potentially dangerous if you can miracle up a 12+ Crows. You can turn the student into a potentially deadly melee threat with this against lower defense models. Ditto with rancid transplant. I'm not suggesting you want your student in melee, but with all the other stuff it does, its at least an option. More importantly is Wracked with Pain. With range 12 and requiring 9+ Crows, this is another good option - prevents 0 actions and gains McM a body part. Very very useful if the student isn't in a position to use assist. Note too that if you're hoarding body parts to use the student can give McM fast without having to ditch a body part. Nico: Nico's got a rough spell list for the student, really what he offers nico is assist and combined efforts. Still, you can get a low casting total decay (requiring 11+ crows to throw). The best use here is fast on a member of the crew, including nico if you're hanging back, IMHO. Seamus: Already fast, so not much use there, but we already covered how sybelle or belles becoming fast is just nightmarish. Seamus also has a slightly more accomodating spell list than Nico, but not as much as McM, though Seamus is arguably a little more user friendly for the student than McM's. Face of death - requiring 11+ crows for the student, but creating a 4" terrifying 14 aura. That's kinda hot against opposing melee centric lists. Live for Pain requires 11+ crows and gives the student a credible short range threat that can also heal him. The healing isn't too useful as anything that gets a bead on the student is likely to kill him anyhow, but this makes for a good, short range coup de grace your opponent may not see coming, particularly late in the turn. U. Psychosis: Interesting. Hard to pull off, requiring 12+ crows, but if you choose your opponent wisely, a low WP model may have a rough time resisting a casting total of 15+ (or at least cheat away a good card to do so, which is in and of itself a victory). This is a really nice way to force your opponent to ditch good cards to beat the cast, or face a melee model that can't get up close an ugly with your melee stuff, and if you move to engage, MUST move away when it comes their turn. If you can get the casting total off against an as of yet unactivated melee model, this is a nasty scenario to put an opposing model in. So the student is really quite good, even for its hefty cost of 4. Frankly i think its one of the most powerful totems, all things told, probably up there with the Brass Arachnid with the right Ramos build and the ever present hollow waif with leveticus (because, let's face it, the waif is what let's leve do what he does, which is murderinate things from range and in melee while self-recycling. Design wise, I think its an incredibly smart move to disallow Leve from having a student, as a fast leveticus would be broken - capable of walking for free, and taking up to 4 actions, one of which must be a cast). The malifaux child has the same rough casting hand that the student does, but is less expensive. Where the child comes into play is in situations where you know your opponent has discarded a hand full of garbage to re-draw. You can make him have to re-take those cards into his hand at the expense of one he drew. Conversely, early in the turn did you just burn a big money card or two (say, red joker, or a suit you need 12-13?) ... then you can use the child to get those back and get rid of garbage cards. The child is all about 1 thing - deck manipulation for you and your enemy. That's it. When you start realizing that you can mess with people's hands and that might impact how they play (and note too that i'm pretty sure that people's discard piles are "public knowledge", meaning you can inspect them - have to double check, but i'm almost positive on that). The child is probably much harder to use than the student, but i have a sneaking suspicion that played smartly, and with a bit of luck, it can be a bigger clinch piece. Maybe not always, but deck manipulation is very useful to ressurectionists who have little deck manipulation to begin with. The key to using the child is keeping a tally on when you plan to activate your child, and what is in the bottom 1-2 cards of both your, and your opponents decks. I personally like to use the child to recycle really good cards that i burn early back into my hand at the expense of garbage cards. -- haight

Vultures. At first i was going to go with grave spirit, but then i realized that his little avian friends can use themselves as a focal point to cast fog, requiring 6 Masks+ to pull it when nicodem casts through them after a use of eyes and ears. Which means it's very possible to have 3 castings of Fog, which creates a gigantic swath of cover production. The armor is nice on nico, but its superfluous - you should be generating zombies quickly enough that you can shunt some damage here an there off, and decay yourself back up when required. Between shunting, decay healing, fog, and hard to wound, he should be pretty sustainable. Additionally, while its much harder, you can also bounce decay, Reanimator, and rigor mortis through the birds as well, which gives you many more vectors of approach. The birds can also create huge zones of corpse token collection via "bring it back" as well, which can be positively vital when playing against guild. While the grave spirit can Magical Extension, it can only get 3 Crows at it, while the bird can use Eyes and Ears and nicodem can cast through it with 4 Crows. I think the only thing the grave spirit really has going for nicodem is that itself has 3 crows for use with magical extension which makes getting fog or a healing intended decay targeting a friendly easier than the vulture with its static 2 CA, no suit. Then again, with the bird i just need to companion Nicodem, and then move my obscene 10 wlk, and then Eyes and Ears, and i just got another 10+ inches of threat out of decay, fog, etc. The only thing that stinks about vultures is that they are most useful in pairs, and that makes them costly for a straight up support totem. Still, you can have one on casting monkey duty, and another on body collection duty, which frees up models to go and do the fighting for the net cost of a belle or crooked man. 4 points is cheap when you figure its 2 mobile corpse tokens, and its mobile casting extension for nicodem and token collection.

Yes and no. There are two game sizes - scraps and brawls. Scraps are 1 master games, brawls are 2 master games. Viktoria can only hire models with the "mercenary" trait in scraps - and none of the gremlins are mercenaries. So you'd need to play a two master game before opening up your minion pool to gremlins, which i don't recommend just starting out. You can take Viktoria at brawls, but your soulstone reserve is reduced by 5 (i.e. - if you're playing a 50 SS game with 2 masters, and you take vicky, you've actually only got 45 to work with - the reason is that with vicky in a brawl, you've really got 3 masters). If possible, see if a friend or two can go halves or thirds on the book - its REALLY useful, and a pretty nice game book all told between fluff and art.

Welcome to Wyrd, and as a primarily Outcast player myself (Leve for the win!) let me tell you that Outcast crews are NOT bastard step children like mercenary armies are in some game systems (not all, but some). Outcasts right now have a few seperate options. Leveticus is the outcast that can hire any undead, construct, or soulless model from any faction without paying increased cost. He is a master necromancer and his specialty is deck cycling, direct damage, and actually killing himself off and getting brought back to play. Additionally, he is NOT to be underestimated in melee combat, or he'll one shot your ass quicker than your head can spin. I have only played four games with him so far, and his death toll with the pimp hand of necrotic justice is a sabretooth, Lady J, and an Ice golem. Coolest things about leve ? direct damage, and uber aggressive spell slinging style. If you like in your face, reckless, but tricky casters, this guy is for you. Also, he can hire a LOT of different models from all the other factions, which is pretty cool, and gives him a huge minion pool, that with future releases, is only likely to get bigger and cooler. He's hard to pick up (so people say, i clicked with him immediately), but so much fun. Then you've got Viktoria. With her, you're essentially getting two masters for the price of one, and a minion pool of any outcast model (which if you check them out, there are some nasty models in that minion pool - hans and gunslinger for shooting fun, Misaki, taelor, and johan for good beatin', and killjoy for owning people with a fat, naked assed undead goliath with a meat cleaver. There's also alyce too, though she gets pricey for non scavengers (worth it though if you need shooting). Not to mention the superb Student of Conflict totem and the very cool ronin. Viktoria is really awesome because you get one master that is downright uber in melee, and another that is a balanced mix of range and melee. Viktoria can re-spawn herself when she's died by sac'ing soulstones and a ronin with a spell of hers. It's tough to cast, but even having that option is really good. Either of her incarnations are superb melee beatdown. Then there's S'omer Jones. Don't let gremlins fool you - they are a nasty (and hilarious) force to contend with. Super card draw, huge damage, tons of stampeding pigs colliding with your stuff - all part of gremlins. I'll let someone else talk them up because i'm not really a gremlin outcast expert, but i can tell you this - they can be downright deceptively stupid good. Lastly - i play a little bit of everything, but i'm an outcast through and through. Leveticus is what got me into the game, as clockwork necromancy with undead and constructs was just too awesome to ignore. Besides - he's got a unibrow. A glorious one at that. There is no better gloating rights than pimp-slapping an opponent for 12 damage with Leveticus and telling your buddy "Your master just got solitaired by an old dude with a unibrow." I like playing outcasts overall because it lets me collect a wide range of models, and play a variety of playstyles, which is the main draw - and i get to use all these great outcasts at their base cost, not the inflated other faction cost. Welcome to Outcasts. We have cookies. Soul cookies!

Personally i like all the retribution stuff so far. A very cool mix of clandestine operative + assassins in shadows with heavily armored military force. Cool dynamic and i like that they achieve it with balance between the two instead of predominantly one and a splash of the other.

I don't think perdita's crew is overpowered. Do i think its a VERY good crew ? Absolutely, and i think it has one of the lowest, if not the lowest, learning curve of them all. That said, The 'Tina player is probably irritated because his ice pillars do squat all against bullet bending. The outasts i'm not sure what their gripe is, because viktoria is positively filthy even without access to Ronin. The thing about perdita is that she's a great combination of resource management, excellent shooting, and counter-denial (bullet bending), along with denial (obey). Her DF is fantastic at a whopping 8, and her other stats are good to great as well, with the sole exception being her WD count which is on the low end of the spectrum for masters. I'd encourage your naysaying friend to play a few games with, and against Perdita. The Family Ortega is a great set, but it does have weaknesses (like Obey'ing Papa Loco - which if he's unharmed, is not going to end well for him, or probably some other models on your side of the board). Santiago only gets frightening when he's half dead already, and nino is a tad fragile - some long range threat can put him in his place if you don't allow him to set up shop and start Trigger Happy'ing off salvo after salvo. Placement and terrain help against him. Francisco is a good melee and ranged threat, but you can mitigate him like most other models like that. Draw him out into the open, and go from there. Cover is key against the ortega clan - if you don't use cover, they will chew you apart, so you have to use it as much as possible. Viktoria's crew box may have some issues with this as most of them are predominantly melee focused, while Perdita's box is ranged focused. All in all i think the best move is to get some games and illustrate the beneficial aspects of cover, in tandem with gently moving up the SS cap. Once you get to 35 stones, things start really balancing out in terms of mitigating options.

Slick look - love the header art. One suggestion: A link tab up top to go back to the forums would be useful. I don't know about others, but I like to zip in between the two while browsing, and a link tab would make it more convenient. Aside from that, i really like it. The scroll overs are nice, and the pages look great / user friendly.

I believe that Nathan said the site is being re-designed, and is taking longer than expected.

I voted Ortega. Easiest to pick up and learn, Perdita has a forgiving learning curve, and it's easy to swap in or out one family member to pick up a specialist piece to create a list that is tailor made for the user.

I like it, and it was similar to a list build i was coming up with sonnia. The only difference is that i dropped a marshal and a witchling for Sammael, who, in my estimation, is ri-goddamn-diculously good for the points. Nothing is more anti-factional than straight up ass tons of flaming bullet damage. -- haight

You'll probably be sad to hear that they just recently errata'd "graverobber" so that they can no longer do an (all) - produce a corpse counter. They nixed it (rightfully) due to an inbalance with res'ers being able to get 18+ soul stones up on their opponent in 1-2 turns. However, Nicodem can still produce an impressive amount of corpse tokens by using Decay and killing stuff. Mortimer also has about a 24.5% chance with exhume of getting a corpse counter, which isn't stellar, but he's a great model with great other abilities.

Usually i like to scratch build my stuff or buy pre-cast resin, but man, all that stuff for 30 bucks is a pretty damn hot deal.

It almost makes me think that interpretation is too good to be true, but it'd be a shame to have nico take another hit in such short order. It'd be nice to get official word on this either way.

Interesting take, and I can see that interpretation! Hmmm. Mechanical wording vs. mechanical damage table. Wonder which ones right (though the more i think on it, i think you guys are onto something, and its a more ideal solution for the nicodem player, pretty much a best of all worlds for that spell).

This would work, but presents just one problem: It creates a rule not on the cards, and thus, if you and your gaming buddies don't visit the forums, you will never know this exists. It's sometimes necessary in errata, but its NEVER favorable. If you can come up with a non-card change that does the same thing with no other negative impact, it's always favorable to do the change that doesn't impact the card. That said, i'm not sure if its better here to change larva or slow. Changing larva fixes the problem, and modifies nothing else, but makes a card have not have rules on a model anymore. Changing slow changes a core rule, but doesn't impact any card. It also stops any sort of trick that involves summoning + card generation + all actions from happening in the future. I'm not sure which is the better answer, honestly (or if there's a better one that i or others haven't dreamt up yet). The difference of S'omer to Leveticus is that Leveticus (even with 8 point alyce) can't sit on a perfect control hand, and even if he does, when he recycles, he ditches his hand. So even if you use death lessons to ice yourself and you see the joker, you know that joker's going away next turn. Even if its in your hand and you recycle, its going away. Leveticus doesn't let you draw your whole deck and sit on it unless your willing to not recycle him - and if you're not recycling leve, why the heck are you playing him ? Additionally, Leve's recycle is shut down by killing one model - and you effectively have taken the master out of the game. Even if you kill the 'skeeters, jones and crew are still by and large intact. Bit of a difference there, though i can appreciate the comparison.

I was just going to ask this same question. I THINK that if you directly hit a friendly undead, you heal two, no blasts. That said, i also think that if you directly hit an enemy, and blasts are generated, friendly undead's in the blasts get healed, while enemy models and friendly-non undead get damage based on flips. That could create a situation of a friendly undead in a blast, and a friendly non-undead or enemy model in a blast, the one getting healed, and the others taking damage, respectively. I can't be certain that's the intent, but that's how i currenly read it. Reason being is that in order to generate blasts there has to be a damage flip. On a direct hit on a friendly undead, there is no damage flip - its a straight up heal. No pass go, no 200 bucks. However if you directly hit an enemy model, or a friendly non-undead, you generate a damage flip. That flip can generate blasts, which count as "hits". Thus, logically speaking, the blasts would perform either of the two ways the spell presents. Again, not sure if that's 100% correct, but that's how i'm reading it.

Hyperbole about fun vs. competitive, and invoking real life and fictional military figures aside, the problem with an infinite mill trick in a card game is one of unilateral access. If everyone has access to an infinite mill, fine, no problem, as its a unilateral resource on an equal basis. The problem with this is that there are at least two mechanical tiers of unequal unilateral access. The first is that to even hire more than 1 mosquito, a crew must hire S'omer. This means that unless you are playing S'omer outcasts, or a brawl with S'omer in a master slot, you cannot pull this trick. More definitively, if you are not playing S'omer, you cannot pull this resource trick in a scrap. That's the big one. Lack of unilateral resource generation / mill on an infinite scale, in a severely limited scope of access, is a problem. Look at magic the gathering. While i no longer play (haven't for a while), there are many infinite mill tricks - some good, some bad. A player, when sitting down to play a game of magic has the same unilateral access to cards to put into his deck that his opponent does. It's not as if he puts a single "red" card into his deck, and this then immediately closes him off from the infinite generation trick. It may make it harder if he puts "red" (and i'm plucking that out of thin air, i'm years behind the times in magic, it may be easy or hard for red to do mill, i have no clue - substitute peuce, white, chartreuse, or tartan if you like), but it's still possible because of the rule of unilateral access. In this instance, the moment you take a master other than S'omer, you close yourself off from this trick. That right there violates the law of infinite generation = unilateral access. In a resource game that has a sliding scale of worth in a positive and negative fashion, with a finite amount of resources, infinite draw power of that resource for one of 15 masters currently is not balanced. 2) This trick can be pulled while you hang out behind terrain, and barring few exceptions (lilith being the main one i can think of with nephilim and Waldgeists), there is very little most crews can do about this before you get going, land a joker in your hand (along with tons of 10+ cards), and are in a position to probably auto-fail duel someone, and then hit them up with severe effects. Particularly given Jones' Boomer double damage that can solitaire the vast majority of models in the game (those with 10 wounds lacking armor or hard to kill), this presents a pretty big dilemma in terms of balance. So against many masters this one now has unequal access to resource generation (which is finite, unlike magic, to continue that analogy of game design, though magic has a mill lose condition and mana burn damage condition built in). He now is in a position where against many masters there is nothing you can do on the first turn to really prevent you from getting the optimal hand of cards. The big problem here is one of threat ranges and terrain. If you have a piece of terrain on your side of the board, towards your deployment, you can hide there, and pull the trick, with most models being arguable out of threat range to you turn one (and threat ranges that don't pull first turn "before you go" kills are good in an alt activation game). Again, Lilith might be an exception due to fast moving models and transposition, but that's really entering into the board position and deployment more than mechanical strength or weakness. 3) Finally, I have a hard time believing that the core game design in a finite but regenerative resource management based game, that it is an inborn design intent to have any one master be able to mill-draw a perfect hand nearly without fail as long as you turtle a bit turn one, leaving you with a disgusting draw hand to pull the rest of the master's already impressive list of tricks. BUT ... i may be wrong. I think only nathan and ericJ and some others know the answer. I'll say this - game design wise, it's unfathomable to me to let this stand, as it would compromise too many core game design elements of a resource management game like this. The rules are pretty clean and intuitive and Wyrd has shown a pattern so far of stopping upwardly scaling shenanigans so far, so i'll be surprised if it stands. I probably wouldn't quit if someone wants to pull this until (if) it changes, but if it weren't a tournament, i'd very nicely ask them not to play it twice in a row. If they refused, i'd probably say "good game, nice combo" and then try to find another opponent, and do my best over the following week to think up a counter-combo that could potentially shut it down. To quote a fellow gamer buddy of mine that i respect highly: The goal is to win, the objective is to have fun. While killer combos don't rob your opponent of fun (because honestly, who of us wants to win all the time?), there is a difference between a killer combo and a clear and present unintentional rules interaction that places the very bedrock fabric of the game's (finite but repeating chance driven resource management) balance into a precariously questionable position. I'm not, but if i were, a developer of Wyrd, i'd be investigating ways of looking to keep mosquitos doing what i meant them to do, while also putting a stop to this trick with as much emphasis on "path of least resistance" as possible. But that's just me, and i'm not a wyrd designer - i have no idea what the future picture of their game looks like. Is it possible that this is just the first of a series of Teh Uber Combo's ? Maybe - i find it doubtful, but it is possible. At this point, i'm going to ruminate on how to stop it if i see it, and wait for word from wyrd.

First experience with Wyrd customer service - A+++. So i got my first two orders yesterday, and like the spastic mini's rhesus monkey I am, eagerly tore open the packages for the new shiny within. Discovered that the witchling stalker in my Sonnia box had his sword snapped off. Inspected it, and its a fiddly little bit where the handle meets the crossguard - having mini gamed for years and bartertown traded, its the kind of thing that no amount of good packaging can prevent - it's just a really thin connection point. I email nathan - tell him about it, and ask him if i can just buy one witchling stalker with postage instead of buying a whole new pack (afterall, its really no ones fault - the thing was packed well, and padded). My thought was that it was just one of those things, and i wanted to offer to pay because i can use the witchling for conversions etc, or send it back if that was protocol, and i want to pay for it to keep their margins intact. His response ? "Nope - if we mess something up, we fix it. Period. [We'll get it in the post right away]." Also, less than 3 hours turnaround time from first email to first response, and second response this morning back within 90 minutes. Very pleased - thanks guys. Quick response and customer-on-a-pedestal service is a VERY good combination of traits for a mini/game company to have. I was so impressed with the turn around and the attitude, I wanted to make a kudos thread. -- Haight

But, see that's the whole point - a game is not balanced if i MUST take something to shut down a combo you MAY bring. See the distinction ? If this lets your resource pool in a resource oriented game go infinite (or as infinite as possible in the parameters of the game), that's a bad thing for game balance. Despite that there may be one or two counters that shut it down, the fact remains that there is a question if an infinite mill trick is something that was intended against "Lists not containing Bete Noire or possibly Killjoy". The more i think about this the more i think the answer may be errata'ing (all actions) to state that a model must have more than one action to perform them, or to errata slow to state that slow models cannot perform (all actions). It's intuitive, it's clean, and it doesn't go changing anything on any cards (a + in my book). I couldn't necessarily see any downsides - could anyone else ? I'll say this Sprue, you've got an eye for finding cute chinks in the armor of balance. Even if your trick gets errata'd you can take comfort in the fact that you spotted something that will eventually contribute to making the game better.... and if it doesn't get errata'd... well, color me buying S'omer Teef.