hannibal

Kealios used a proxy model. I don't recognize the miniature line, sorry.

I'll second everything you've said. While I personally don't think leap is that great, because it requires you to flip/cheat a specific suit, and because these guys need to run in groups. Leaping a sabretooth cerberus: cool, because you really only need to cheat once. Having to cheat a bunch of these guys is a lot of cards. And yeah, I know there's a decent chance you'll get the suit, but I pretty much assume that if the model doesn't have the suit requirement I'm going to have to cheat. Makes planning easier that way. The other thing I'd say is that flurry can be quite nice. Just last night I used rapid fire twice, dropping a low card every time (both times I think it was a 1). I think flurry is perfect for when you have junk cards. Lastly, your numbers arguement is correct, if you plan to take that many. I was thinking of 3 necros vs 2 punk zombies. At that point, the discount doesn't net you a ton more models. But yeah, you take like 8 of the necros, that's a big jump compared to the 5 punk zombies you'd buy at that level. That being said, if you think Bolster undead is nice the with Necros, the punks would be running around with Cb9 (with a paired weapon!) and Df 7. Oy . . . Still, you make very good points.

So on a lark, I decided to take a Convict Gunslinger with Seamus (see the battle report against Pandora). I figured he would have enough "flair" for Seamus. And may I say "that jolly cad is jus' tha' sort who's worth knowing." :top:

Yeeeeeah, much of the world operates by just-in-time stocking like that. Your local grocery store does it, and if you have a Costco nearby they're the kings of that. I still say that FRP games just got hit with a supply shortage that exposed the weakness of that model.

So Kealios and I played last night, him taking Pandora and me proxying for Seamus. Kealios had: Pandora, Poltergeist, Doppleganger, Baby Kade, 2 Terror Tots, a Sorrow, and Teddy. I had: Seamus, Sybelle, 3 Belles, 2 Punk Zombies, and a Convict Gunslinger. We both drew the slaughter strategy. I took Army of the Dead and Bodyguard as my schemes (announcing both) while Kealios took Bodyguard and Kidnap (announcing). So in other words, the two crews were going to go straight at each other and this was going to be an 8 to 0 VP for somebody. I'll save you the blow-by-blow because the game essentially became a giant scrum in the center. The Belles used chain lures (like six of them plus two of sybelle's) to pull enemy models out of cohesion. The highlights include: --the Convict Gunslinger, suffering under Dementia, rapid firing on Teddy as a throw away action. . . and killing him. He kept getting masks, setting off Trigger Happy. Even with negative 3 flips, when you hit six times, that's a dead teddy. Literally, the 3rd shot from Rapid Fire was wasted because he got all six hits with his first two attacks. --The Convict Gunslinger putting Baby Kade down to 1 wound, but failing to kill him. Kade then followed up with Backstab and putting down the Convict. --Chain Lures bringing Pandora into the circle of pain: Seamus charged in, foolishly attacking Pandora and not the sorrow. So the hit went on the sorrow. But the next turn, Seamus goes first and prepares the alpha strike . . . and then kills Pandora himself. --Chain lures bringing a terror tot and doppleganger into the open where they could be killed by Seamus or the punk zombies. By the end of turn 4, the only thing left on the board for Pandora was baby Kade (with 1 wound left) while Seamus had only lost 1 punk zombie. Yeah . . . 8 to 0 VPs. Definate MVPs of the game goes to the belles. Their Lure and Distract are just freaking awesome. You need some follow-up thumping to go with it, which the punk zombies did quite well. But the Gunslinger is no slouch either. I can see why he's Rare 1. On the Pandora side, I have to say that the doppleganger is just a mandatory buy for Neverborn. Not so much for the mimic, but the Ill Omens. I mean it basically ensures you of going first when you need to. I think kealios had a good list, nice balance of Pandora's trickery plus some heavy hitting with teddy and potentially the terror tots. It's just . . . well, what can you do when a guy gets 6 hits from 2 attacks?:AR15firin

I'm assuming you're choosing between punk zombies and necro punks? If so, I go for the punk zombies. They have paired katanas with a Cb 7, they have Hard to wound, and a Df 5. Which is actually pretty high for this game. When it comes to a comparison, both the punk zombies have Rot and flurry. When it comes to wounds I think the punk zombies edge out the necropunks. The punks have 6 woundw tih hard to wound 1, meaning that it usually takes 3 hits to kill the punk. Two if the attacker gets lucky on a damage flip. The necros have 4 wounds and hard to kill. Normally 4 wounds isn't great because it's only moderately hard to one-round them, but the hard to kill means it's gonna take two. So if you had to compare them the necros are going to die in 2 hits whereas the punk zombies are going to die in 2.5 hits (round up or down depending on luck). Then once they die, they boh have slow to die so that's a push. But for me it comes down to having the same defence and the punk having better Cb with more damage. They even have the same move, so no bonus for the little necros there. But what this really says is: for the use I intend, the Punk Zombies are better. And my use is to run up and start hurting people. The necropunks really aren't front-line thumpers like the punk zombies. So to use them that way is an unfair comparison. The necropunks are utility models, not good at their two roles but enough to tip the scales. For example, with arachnid and leap, they can pretty much be anywhere. Really, it's arachnid more than leap because of the suit requirement on leap makes this not a totally reliable spell. But the arachnid means that you can divert only 3 soulstones to grabbing the Treasure or securing a table quarter for the reconnaissance misson. That frees up the more bashy stuff to go out and inflict the hurt on people. The leap and the melee powers (flurry, slow to die, hard to kill, overpower) are really the model's secondary uses. If an enemy is in combat with, say, Sebastian or a punk zombie or a flesh construct, then you can send in the necropunk to inflict those last 2-3 wounds to kill the bad guy. It's especially useful if the bad guy and sebastian/punk zombie/flesh construct have both already activated. Because then the enemy has probably burned all his good cards from his hand. So have you, obviously, but if you can get leap off as a zero action and then focus you're doing bonus flips to mitigate that. So really, the question becomes: what role do you have planned for the punk or necro? That'll you the best use of your soulstones.

Actually lots of online retailers, even ones with Ebay stores, will list things as being in stock when they don't have them. The thing is retailers get shipments daily. Often they order something when its getting low and at most they're out of it for a couple days before they get a restock (sometimes within a day). So in that case while it may be actually out of stock when it gets ordered, the restock comes so quickly that you don't realize it and think its just part of the shipping delay. To go in and list things as being out of stock in that case is a waste of time that could spent on things like processing the restock. I know a lot of companies do this. If you think of it that way, then frpgames' post makes sense: they expected to get a restock that never materialized and so there's this delay between charging and shipping. Now, I'm not saying that they shouldn't refund the money if you ask. I'm just saying that this process is not unique to FRP games and we should keep that in mind before we start grabbing pitchforks and torches.

This is very interesting, because I've ordered from FRP games for years and have never had a problem with or heard of anyone having a problem with them. I do know that they have had trouble keeping Malifaux in stock (everybody has), but I've had very good experiences with them.

Really, no one has any thoughts? Really? :hmpf:

Really, 3 necropunks instead of 2 punk zombies? I dunno. Those punk zombies seem a much better use. And Mortimer with Seamus? Seems so gauche for a man of such class. . .

Yeah, I'm just planning on needing to cheat & burn a soulstone for Arise My Sweet. But Seamus does come with 2 for free, so I see that as 2 belles summoned. Do you think a couple of extra soulstones is better than having another flintlock? Conversely, I could have the Grave Spirit and 1 extra Soulstone. Maybe have my 35 SS crew be: V1: Seamus, Sybelle, 3 Belles, 3 Punk Zombies. 2 SS left over (4 total) V2: Seamus, Copycat Killer, Sybelle, 4 Belles, 2 Punk Zombies. 1 SS left over (3 total). V3: As above but swap Grave Spirit for Copycat. Gives 2 SS left over (4 total). Yeah I'm thinking that 3 of them will allow me to peel off enemy models in the early turns. Cast Lure a bunch of times and then with any spare APs I have use Undress on the lured model or Distract to slow people down in the early stages of the game.

Which, according the current understanding of the rules, is not voluntarily blowing himself up... :tongue1: :tj: (Yep, I'm on this train. I have a friend who can translate Latin. I will pull a Cato the Elder on this one! :vb_tongue )

Again, I only played one game, so not the greatest sample size. But I can see the Ortegas turtling against some of the bashy armies out their and then rushing forward in the later turns if the need the center of the turn. In that case, it's possible that Nino is in range of somebody. But yeah, at best you're "only" going to get 3-4 of them. :

Oh come on, group hugs are for pansies. Real men solve their problems this way: :fight: :vb_cheers :friday: For what its worth, I'm all cool with extreme RAW. And I'm okay with Mortimer's spell. He's not a corpse counter generator. He's a thug who during one of the off the turns might generate a random counter. Then he can leave it there for Nicodem to later come along and raise something with it.

Since I'm one of the participants in the "Cheating Fate" conversation, which has grown a bit heated and probably long since ceased to be helpful, I thought I'd do some public service and change the subject: I have a Seamus box on order from my FLGS (c'moooooon restock!!). I'm wondering what to get to take them from their 20 SS to 35SS and maybe even 45. Obviously, the crew will include Seamus, Sybelle, and 3 Belles. That's 20 SS. I'm thinking of adding Grave Spirit instead of the Copycat Killer as a totem. Seamus's spells are really difficult to cast and I just don't foresee Cheating Fate to get them off. Too many other potential uses. So whichever route I go, I'll be using the totem for its other abilities primarily. The Copycat Killer's flintlock is nice, but taking wounds limits it. Yeah I could probably cast Live for Pain to get some wounds back but again, that's an 11 I need to pull that off. That's only a little over a 1-in-5 chance. Then again, three shots is the majority of the game (assuming 1-2 turns of maneuvering). And then I only need to cheat once to heal two wounds through Live for Pain (assuming the resist fails). The Grave Spirit though costs 1 SS for essentially Armor 2, which is nice value. The only downside is it only affects undead, so I can't link him with Seamus. Which makes sense, because that'd just be sick. Still, link him with Sybelle and she's a pretty good tank. Even better, if there's a fight where I simply need someone to hold the line I can walk this guy over and have him link up with that Belle who needs to not die. And since he's a companion, I could do it and still have seamus to run around before my opponent can retaliate. So what do you think? Go for the extra shooty with the Copycat or extra durability with the Grave Spirit? What I know I'll be adding are two punk zombies. They'll add some punch that's desperately needed. That's a good 10 SS right there. I was also thinking about taking a Hanged. I just wonder if its worthwhile. On the surface, he seems just the right complement. Between Horrifying, terrifying, and the ability to knock off half a model's wounds (so the belles can finish the model off), he just seems a good fix. One of my early ideas is to include Sebastian and two Canine Remains. Mainly for the mini-alpha strike but also to be a backup for the belles. He can heal them or inflict some serious hurt. But it just doesn't feel right, I mean, he's McM's guy. And besides, I can't see Seamus, a man of true class, running around with someone like Sebastian. He's just such a . . . prol. So,some quick ideas for crews are: 30SS: Seamus, (Copycat Killer/Grave Spirit) Totem, Sybelle, 3 Belles, 2 Punk Zombies. 35SS: Seamus, Sybelle, 3 Belles, 2 Punk Zombies, 1 Hanged. 45SS: Seamus, (Copycat Killer/Grave Spirit) Totem, Sybelle, 3 Belles, 3 Punk Zombies, 1 Hanged. The 30 & 35 SS crews leave me without any soulstones, and I get the feeling I might need them to resurrect some Belles. The 45 SS gives me 3 more soulstones, which feels like enough. Any thoughts? Am I way off base here?

Amen, brother. I find it frustrating that all I've been trying to say is that it is possible for intelligent people to get it wrong and the answer coming back is "idiot, it's clearly stated in the rules." At this point, given some of the substantial changes that have been made to the rules in the errata, I'm not willing to concede that the rules are always crystal clear.

Hey I'm not the one drawing distinctions between "Immune to willpower duels" and "Ignores willpower duels" . . . .

Yes, I get that. Now. But usually, exceptions are singled out. Usually, if something isn't the exception, then it is not singled out. So by stating that healing cannot be cheated, it comes across that this is the exception and not just reiterating a rule. This is especially compounded when you have the Prevent Damage section where it is not stated that you can't cheat it. For the record, I'm not arguing the call. I see the point. However, I feel that it is in fact not clear. I think that a logical person could see that cheating fate is always allowed unless otherwise stated. I think this could be interpreted from the rules, and implied from the back cover of the book. I mean, cheating fate is one of the selling points of game. I think a logical person could come to the conclusion that the advertised mechanic is an 'always use' sort of thing.

And if the rules said "you can only cheat during a duel, or in other situations where it is explicitly allowed" then it would in fact be logical and crystal clear. However, that's not what the rules say. They say: Now, nowhere in there does it say that you may only cheat fate on a duel. So the game does not in fact clearly convey that idea. The second sentence does state the limitations of cheating, but I think that an intelligent person could come to the conclusion that you can in fact cheat fate on any flip unless otherwise stated. This is because in the combat section when it talks about damaging there simply is not a clear pattern one way or the other: Pg 56 The Damage Flip: third paragraph explicitly states that you can cheat the flip. Pg 57 Healing: states you cannot cheat the flip (or use soulstones for that matter). Pg 57 Using Soulstones to prevent damage: does not say whether you can or cannot cheat (or use soulstones). It says make a flip and refer to the Healing/Prevention chart. So seeing as the most common scenario for a non-duel flip has a "you can", a "you can't", and an omission, how are we the gamers to know what is in the rules writer's head? I think it's a fair assessment by a smart person to come out on either side of whether you can cheat a random flip or not. So while I do see the logic of the decision (i.e. use hyper Rules As Written when reading the rules of this game), it is in fact not spelled out clearly.

Not really. On a 3'x'3 board, the five Ortegas can form a chain 24" long. Now that's the extreme example and probably not likely. But it's feasible to say that each model is between 4"-6" away. That's still a 16" chain, which is frankly pretty realistic. I'll admit I haven't played many games, but it seems to me that models go in clumps, where they're usually within 6" of a model in another clump. I only played the Ortegas once, but the time I did I found myself activating like 2-3 models at a time instead of the entire Alpha Strike. Still that was devastating enough.

Yeah, I think that's the part that's missing. Really, this should just be an FAQ as the rules support the idea that you essentially cannot cheat a flip unless it explicitly says you can. However, several people read those very rules and came to the exact opposite conclusion: you can cheat unless stated otherwise. I'm starting to "get" Wyrd's rules writing philosophy: hyper-RAW.

Okay, so I've been playing Ramos for a couple of weeks, and I thought I'd share some comments & questions. I played a 40 SS game and a 30 SS game. The crew I took was: 35 SS: Ramos, Student of Conflict, Joss, Steamborg, 2 arachnids. 40 SS: see above + 3 more arachnids I know, I know, the 35 SS crew had too few arachnids. But I really wanted to make the Joss & Steamborg combo work. So I won with the 35 SS crew and lost with the 40SS crew. The loss was extremely close and was due to a red joker & then 13 for damage flip with Johan against Ramos. So my thoughts: Ramos: Linked In vs Construct Spider. So, I don't end up using Construct Spider much. Between Joss and the Steamborg, in the clutch turns of the game, I find being able to use Ramos to cast spells and then activate one of those two far more useful than popping out another spider. For example, I have often used Combat Mechanic or Arcing Screen as a buff. Or I use electrical creation to tie down one model for a turn (because you can summon it and place it within bash range of the electrical creation) and then blow up some arachnids. Or just sling some fireballs to soften someone up before sending in Joss or the Steamborg. That combo just seems more valuable than popping out another spider. Anyone else feel this way? In the last game, I made 1 spider. Mainly because I did it early, but then later I needed to move him up. Then I was in the thick of it, where I needed the Linked In. All that being said, his spells are just awesome. Other units: The Student of Conflict is quite nice, and his Fast has come in handy several times. But the lower Ca value and lack of Tomes means the Student is basically not going to cast Ramos's spells. But the Assist and Combined Efforts both can be handy, especially with so many arachnids floating around there. Arachnids are pretty nice, especially as speedbumps and initiative sinks. Often I could move them up and force the other player to at least commit one flank or the other as to where he's going to go. They were often very good at simply moving twice and tying people down in close combat. However, I found Latch on to not be very useful. Their low wound count generally means that while I can force someone to burn an activation killing them, they're going to kill the little guy. A really nice combo has been Defensive stance on the approach, but I seldom use it in melee as I'm doing other as a priority. The Steamborg is a nice brute, and attracts a lot of attention, but yeah I see how people say Joss is better. His ability to drop three power tokens on the charge makes him able to one-round almost anybody. The flip side is his lack of armor or hard to wound means he's vulnerable to a counter charge.

But the whole point was to essentially have a Gremlin crew led by Zoraida. . . But unfortunately, you're right, the +1 SS is just too much to overcome. Sigh. Oh well, guess I won't do it then.

I was thinking of putting together a Gremlin heavy Zoraida crew. My initial thoughts for a 35 SS crew would be: Zoraida Bad Juju 2 Bayou Gremlins Hog Whisperer Piglet Warpig The only thing is that +1SS is almost prohibitive. I mean without it I could pick up another gremlin and another piglet.

Yup. Companion says you can activate either.