Math Mathonwy

I tried this approach with Mei Feng bringing three Survivors and two Metal Gamin. The problem for me was that they don't achieve enough and still die (even though Survivor is arguably one of the toughest 5-SS Minions) and since they take multiple activations to spend their AP, the opponent can react in between.

Also, it's easy to lose activation advantage with cheap minions since they can be killed before they activate (they take a long time to activate, in a way). And I didn't outnumber my opponent in turn three anymore so lost Guard the Stash (which, at least in theory, should favour bigger crews a bit).

Could be player error, of course, but my initial try at least wasn't a success.

I don't think that the Minion problem can be solved through GG.

That said, good topic and would love to hear other people's experiences.

(Also, Botanists are certainly absolutely crazy and apparently was the Scottish GT, so those most certainly work)

Any chance of seeing the lists used for the victory? Would really appreciate!

20 hours ago, Clement said:

An I missing something, or is the entirety of Brewmaster pass token generation Shojo?

Only Shojo, but she can pretty easily create half-a-dozen Pass Tokens on turn two which is kind of a frustrating experience for the opponent.

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

For round 2, it's a Neverborn mirror... I've declared Lucius, and he has declared Euripides!

Not gonna lie, I'm rooting for a Neverborn victory on this one!

11 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

To clarify, are you worried about the base mechanic of pass tokens?

Or crews that make pass tokens like Brewmaster?

Oh, mostly stuff like Brewmaster. If you get Pass Tokens "normally" from having fewer models you cannot really abuse them to get back-to-back activations but if you can get them some other way (and especially if you can get two or more) then that I feel is a problem.

Good clarification - thank you!

I've been abusing Pass Tokens a bit lately and it kinda doesn't sit right with me. There are high stat Obeys and Pushes (even irresistable ones) that can deny some Strats way too effectively for my liking. Trying to score Leylines (or Covert Operations or Guard the Stash) can be almost impossible when the opponent can activate several disruption models after you. And I don't think that this was the point of Pass Tokens.

In M2e there weren't no Pass Tokens and there was a problem with buying lots of super cheap activations (Stuffed Piglets, Rat shenanigans...) and then activating all of your meaningful models once the opponent had already activated his whole crew and leaving them no room to answer. I feel that the Pass Tokens were meant to fix this but now, somewhat ironically, they've created this problem anew in some ways.

Now, there is naturally a cost to passing. On turn one it's pretty free and lets you set up optimally for turn two but there's no scoring (well, Leylines you could mark, but that was a special case) so it's normally not a huge problem. One the action turns passing naturally means that your opponent can kill your non-activated models thus removing your advantage so it isn't always worth it to pass but there's a bit of a snowball effect in that you can prepare for passing in the previous turn using Pass Tokens for an optimal setup. And you can naturally also use it passing to set-up perfect kills for the next turn since killing unactivated models is a such a giant swing.

That said, all in all I feel that the bigger problem is with denying scoring so it isn't an issue in every game.

Finally, it's worth mentioning that not all Pass Tokens are created equal. Youko is kind of a special case in that she was designed to abuse Pass Tokens and pays the price for that in effectiveness (or at least should) but outside of Youko things are a bit more problematic IMO.

What if you couldn't use Pass Tokens to pass unless your opponent had more unactivated models than you? Then they would solve the M2e problem still but wouldn't let you abuse them. And they would still be useful for the initiative bonus.

(Quite a few other skirmish games have this system where you can pass if your opponent has more activations than you. Another popular one is that you can pass any time you like but if both players pass, the turn ends. But this is quite a radical system and changes the dynamic of the game quite a bit.)

And maybe Youko could have a special rule that allows her to pass with Pass Tokens whenever she likes?

Do you feel that the use of Pass Tokens for stalling for multiple back-to-back activations at the end of the round is a problem? Or are things perfect the way they are now?

Great stuff, @Rufess! Love the analysis!

Some notes on a couple of points where I might disagree a bit below:

10 hours ago, Rufess said:

Cursed Objects:

• Kin is always the best keyword for killy strat.
• Also Tricksy and Big Hat.

Isn't Big Hat, as a crew that likes to Summon fragile models, kinda bad in this one?

10 hours ago, Rufess said:

Load 'Em Up:

• The scheme does not specify so keyword with terrain marker, piano or pit trap, can easily scoring it.
• Also the tide marker from the new Angler keyword, depending how easy they can put it out.
• Loot Monger can play with scheme marker as well.

Six is a lot of Pianos or Pit Traps on the opponent's table half, though. Also, there's rather a lot of Marker removal these days. So I wouldn't call it easy but kinda possible, I suppose. Admittedly, I tend to drop fewer pianos than others so maybe others get to six more often. Pit Traps seem less likely.

6 hours ago, dancater said:

In Your Face, I think, needs to be revealed at the moment of the kill, not at the end of Turn, because I can foresee arguments of where/when a model was killed in relation to the respective Master, especially if the Master subsequently moves.

I was thinking the same thing that immediate reveal would make more sense for it. It's not like the opponent can deny it in any way after the fact so there doesn't seem to be much point in keeping it secret until the end of the turn other than the possibility of bluffing another Scheme for just a bit longer.

GG3 finally dropped. New Strats! New Schemes! New variants, even! Very exciting!

Any initial thoughts?

Carve a Path seems like the most extreme Strat in that you need tons of AP to pull it off. Mah has Roosters, Zoraida has Silurids - those seem like the neatest fits.

The other difficult strat is probably Guard the Stash as you need to spread so thin and have the numbers. Again, Zoraida seems pretty good here and Mah should be fine. Zipp should also work well and I don't see Ulix as a bad choice, either. The more bubbly crews like Somer and nuBrew might struggle.

The other two strats should work somewhat well for anyone. I could see Ophelia and nuBrew being very good into Cursed Objects. NuBrew should also be very solid into Covert Operation.

As for the Schemes - do we have any hope of scoring Load ’Em Up with anyone? Zoraida2 with Scheme Markers maybe? But she can do kinda any Scheme so I'm not sure when you would pick this one over other possible choices. Ulix?

Any other Schemes you wish to discuss?

We got the trailer for the Bayou Bash expansion (https://www.wyrd-games.net/news/2022/7/6/waldos-weekly-off-to-the-races) and confirmation that there will be four racers this time as well. Sadly no Malifaux profile previews included.

I guess I'm locking in my final predictions for the four:

• Whiskey Gamin: Tri-chi
• Toad Twins: Kin
• Undead Raptor: Infamous
• Giga-Turtle: Big Hat

I would suggest converting one of the Silurids into First Mate. You won't need three and First Mate is very good. Just give him a cigar and a hat and put him on a 40mm base. Hat could even be a sailor's beanie (easier to sculpt). Also add an anchor (easy to find from a cheap pendant or key chain) if you can.

I like Bad Juju quite a bit. He is quite durable in his own way and usually the enemy needs to concentrate multiple models on him, which lets your Silurids score in peace. Also, Bad Juju doesn't rely on his Triggers so makes an ideal target for Zoraida's Hex into Coordinated Attack which can churn out ridiculous amounts of damage. He's also Sz 4 which is nice for Zoraida's Eyes in the Night to see over terrain and other models. Df3 is of course super low and a canny opponent can deal with him without going through Wounds so beware of that.

Waldgeists are, unfortunately, kinda non-ideal for Zoraida. I really don't see a situation where I would want them outside of some truly bizarre circumstances (I once played on a tournament table which was 80% forests with narrow paths criss crossing). But maybe the next Gaining Grounds will somehow make Minions more useful.

I think that there's kind of two things here that get a bit conflated.

1. Villains are fine as long as the bad stuff they do isn't depicted in a positive light. I don't think that anyone disputes this. Most of the Masters in Malifaux are horrible people but that's OK - the fluff realizes this. Now, some people might get this wrong but I don't think that that can be avoided (I just read about a flame war on the subreddit for The Boys where some conservatives were finally getting clued in to the fact that Homelander isn't a good guy and they were really disappointed).
2. Implications of sexual violence is something where some people draw the line - they don't want such themes in their minis games even from villains. I think that people are allowed to do so. Malifaux does contain quite strong hints in that direction but mostly with Seamus and Levi. It isn't a pervasive theme. So I can totally see why someone wouldn't want them in their Malifaux but would like the rest and therefore would advocate for the removal of those two Masters.
   
   Personally, whether I agree with it or not - a bit difficult to say. I certainly wouldn't want more of it or it being more overt. And as@admiralvorkraftnoted earlier, Seamus is more interesting and more developed as a character than Levi and therefore his themes are more nuanced and better handled. I wouldn't be opposed in changing Levi's themes a bit in that regard as the hints of lecherousness aren't in anyway central to him (unlike how zombie hookers kinda define Seamus and therefore sexual themes are way more difficult to remove - not to mention the Jack the Ripper thingy).
   
   Finally, I could see DMH used for rotations but that would be a big change. As DMH currently stands, I wouldn't want any Masters to be dropped there. Rather rework that bit of fluff from Levi if one feels like it.

A lot has been said about the weakness of cheap combat Minions. Dedicated scheme runner Minions like Silurids or Necropunks are good as are more expensive Minions such as Samurai or Hanged but there's a lot of cheap combat/generalist Minions that suck. Stuff like Lightning Bugs or Wrastlers and such.

So what if they were a "hire two, get a third one for free!" type deal?

What are the sorts of bad Minions that you would take three for the price of two and which ones do you think that wouldn't see play even then (as it is a hefty investment)?

14 minutes ago, Azahul said:

I would say on average half our games go through to Turn 5. We have a lot of newer players though and some of the older players don't always get to play regularly. 

I feel this matches my experiences as well.

8 minutes ago, Azahul said:

Most local players have families and can't give up two days of a weekend for an event. That immediately locks us locally into three round, one day events. Many local game stores don't even open until 10am and most players don't want to be playing past dinner time. So... it's kind of irrelevant how complex the game is or should be. When I set a local event I want three rounds played and finished within 8 hours. 2.5 hours per game, which includes deployment and packing up post-game, is the absolute maximum I can allow a round to go for, and ideally I'd like it to be less so that there's actually time for a lunch break.

Do the games get to the end of turn five regularly?

And yeah, 2.5 hours is, I feel, kinda the minimum and it works but I would prefer three hours, personally.

This thread was prompted by the news that the next Vassal event will use clocks:

https://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/159218-trials-of-time-the-next-event-in-the-mws-includes-chess-clocks/

Also, a local tournament was flashing the idea of two-hour rounds with chess clocks. (Which was thankfully abandoned since the event was also supposed to be a beginner-friendly thing)

Now, I can definitely see the appeal of chess clocks. A Malifaux game that ends on turn three isn't a normal Malifaux game and skews the game massively. And if the game not getting to later rounds is the fault of one player, the other one can definitely feel robbed.

At the same time, the game is getting more and more complex. The amount of profiles is staggering and being even somewhat familiar with every keyword and Master is basically impossible if you have a normal life and don't live and breathe Malifaux. We are also expected to be able to accurately juggle nearly hundred points of Poison a turn. And there's more and more of Markers and Upgrades and card tricks and so on and so forth. Keeping track of the opponent's Configuration and what its current state enables each opposing model to do sounds complex.

Two hours and with chess clocks will skew the game as well. I would never take a truly complex Master into an event like that. Something like Somer juggling his Auras and complexities of his keyword or Brewmaster2 with those 100 points of Poison would both be impossible for me, at least, to get an even remotely competitive game out of.

So what do you feel is a realistic game length for tournaments?

I kinda feel that I'm leaning towards three hours, personally. It would allow people to play the more complex Masters and would allow one to play without a chess clock as with a longer game length you can easily see if one player is taking forever with his decisions. Of course then you would need a robust system for handling those kinds of situations and I would definitely be interested in thoughts on that front, as well.

Or are chess clocks the only solution?

45 minutes ago, Regelridderen said:

Oh yes I do

-

No, but it is a way to put the efficiency of Yan Lo2 in perspective.

I'm trying to say that if Yan Lo2 actually had 10 AP he would be quite a bit more broken to say the least  

On 6/10/2022 at 8:33 PM, Regelridderen said:

It’s simple math.

He can dump a scheme marker and make a move in one action - basically two actions.

Then make three Obeys that dole out focus - so that’s another six actions.

Then his dog can have him make another Obey - two actions more.

So that’s the equivalent of ten actions - while being able to jump across the board. 

(Not to mention what a Flame Breath’ing dog can do with bonus flips and focus to a crew that’s standing a little too close. That Yan eats markers for cards, and that he can sculpt the top of his deck).

-

And I’ve got opponents ‘complaining’ about Seamus being able to do 4 actions 😄

I don't think that giving Focus should count as an AP in an analysis such as this and the same goes for dropping Scheme Markers. There's lots of models that can pulse out mass Focus and a lot of models drop Scheme Markers as part of something else. I mean, you don't normally consider Mah Tucket as having ten Actions when she pulses Focus to her crew on the first turn.

That said, Yan Lo2 is crazy powerful.

7 hours ago, farmoar said:

dang. was hoping there would at least be "playstyles" listed somewhere. that's a shame

Are there any specific Masters or even factions that you're interested in?

This one was my favourite from the contest! Such an amazing atmosphere in the piece and so many little things to discover all over (the reflections in the mirror are a great touch, for example). And the work on different textures is amazing as well.

I do have to ask - was the one fallen petal on the bottom of the plinth on purpose or a happy accident? Because I kinda love the sort of "fourth wall" breaking there  

3 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think schemer is a bit the wrong tag for him.

He is a team player and a hybrid model, with access to good damage, utility, control, and mobility.

That said I know mileage varies, but I tend to trust axelst/azahul xD

It was Azahul who called him originally a Schemer. But point taken yeah - "schemer" encompasses a wide range of models and he isn't a Necropunk or Silurid but more of a Manos or thereabouts, probably  

17 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I tend to think the opposite.

A 9 stone model is worth supporting.

If a 5 stone model needs support I'm more likely to be skeptical.

For Schemers, though? I mean, most premium 8-10SS Schemers don't require much in the way of support to do their thing.

That said, I think that the suggestion of dropping Bishop to 7SS is kinda crazy-sounding.

5 minutes ago, Adran said:

There is a difference between concealing and concealment. So ignoring concealing does not help if concealment is gained some other way. 

Just to make sure I understood you correctly, you mean that Concealing terrain gives Concealment but you wouldn't ignore Concealment that comes from sources other than terrain (such as Sputtering Exhaust)?

Ophelia2 can let a Kin use her guns but they must discard the Upgrade after the Action. Trash Cannon has a Swift Action Trigger that lets you take the Action again. Can you, or do you discard the Upgrade first?

Perdita2's Bestial Hunter lets Family ignore Hazardous and Concealing Terrain.

The way I read the Concealing and Hazardous from the rulebook would suggest that Hazardous is always tied to terrain. So a Hazardous Aura would count as Hazardous terrain and Bestial Hunter would let you ignore it.

However, I'm not convinced that the same is true for Concealing. And therefore Bestial Hunter wouldn't let you ignore, e.g., Sputtering Exhaust from an Iron Skeeter, which states that "Models within a2 of this model have Concealment."

Am I correct?