Illustrange

for Neverborn I want Pandora to become a bit more Pandora's orphanage (am actually following that theme with mine.) at first the twisted children story thing was her theme, but it became much more the dreamer's so more little evil "orphans" for pandora with crossovers offcourse. then more swampy tentacly stuff indeed to support sillurids, bad juju, waldgeist and crossover with the tentacly nightmares fluffwise I can even see a bit of a change, while pandora still hates humans and one main goal is get them out of malifaux, dead or alive, the book 2 full gave a more *emotional* side, and a fear of the woes she uses, combined with the 3 neverborn sisters main goal of making sure those ancient tyrants dont return. I can imagine post event (or during event.) children are born to humans that are only a vessel to something darker.. heck, they could even be born by pure magic of the event. Pandora takes them under her guidance, both to make sure they never reach full potential (she noticed how terrifying that would be with candy during the event.) and also to use that same potential in small doses to her advantage with that idea came an opposite idea of the jeckyll/hyde thing. the event had a different effect on killjoy, it trapped him inside the visual appearance of a small boy (named KiJo ) wich he desperately tries to escape from, (pandora keeps him trapped there tough.) basically KiJo would be cheaper (but not much) then killjoy, has his entire own stats and abilities, tough maybe underwhelming for his cost.. and certain triggers shapeshift KiJo into killjoy, but all using delicate, risky and contradictory tactics. (it has to be hard, its not supposed to be *just* a summon killjoy cheap and avoid his negative side vessel) (if anyone has stat ideas for that to work ? Im not good with stats. perhaps you gunpowder saint ?) visually I imagine him like the little boy in le Orphanage. While I would myself like it too (love character creation ) I think it partly ruins character driven games as well (and not just balance.) tough one could always have something like what dogs of war was for confrontation, same mechanics, different game. perhaps with the apparently also desired rpg elements woven in. on the otherside I recently realised book 1 has a "ronin cannot be upgraded to henchman" thing written, and we now know what henchman are (basically replacement/lesser masters.) there allready was the speculation wether not all future henchman arent tied to special forces (wich I dont hope nor expect... special forces should remain a bit special ) but reading that I suddenly tought it might be that you can even *create* your own henchman.. upgrading an existing profile (not necessarily characters as the ronin arent.) giving the possibility to use soul stones, lead a force (I wonder how they work in limitations, probably like--> an upgraded henchman can only recruit those with similair descriptive aspects (woe, mercenary, family, death marshal, belle etc.) probably with some other options as well (could be as simple as all resser upgrades get +1 or 2 on stats x and y as well as graverobber and summon dead abilities etc. or up to multiple upgrade options.) it wouldnt be free character creation, and it wouldnt work well with everything, but it could be fun it could also be that henchman were something completely different back when developing book 1 profiles and that rules line for the ronin is pretty much void now tough dont know if you know, but there is alot of crocs out there, crocodile's sebeki army, impact miniatures sarcos fantasy football team (also having gavials and young crocs) and reaper (offcourse) has some too. between those groups and the WM ones you can built up a pretty nice skirmish army.. Id imagine with some conversion and some other inclusions one could even create a quite varied big crocodile army (really want to see someone do that )

I was thinking that a conversion set of umbrellas, fans (seperate and/or in a hand... perhaps using those in the rotten belles blister as well) and perhaps a couple of zombiefied heads would give seamus players enough to make alot of different belles based on wyrd minis alone (beyond current belles; hollow waifs, wich I use as well, make perfect extra belles, as do the performers.. as well as (even better with head swap options) the mannequins and coryphee.) such a set should be cheaper to produce and perhaps much more valueable than alternative rotten belles (tough more different belle profiles are wanted too )

with the last part, people always whine about *originality* things, but I think the strongest things are not those that are original, but embrace stereotypes, then offcourse to me thats what being done with most of malifaux anyway. (as opposed to most fantasy/scifi games imho) so it all depends on how you look at things as for the first thing, Im pretty sure voodoo is a "hollywood" concept. hoodoo I think is the proper thing and not religion but a "practice" afaik.. the religion being (among others) santeria ? havent checked it and the topic I havent read about recently. likewise, while I see no religion, religious faction, religious motives in malifaux, I dont think the character stereotypes are excluded.. there are witch hunters allready, and I can definitely see a typical western priest type personality sans any fanatisicm (wich doesnt fit the era anyway.) my current belief is he should be an ortega tough

pretty much arcanists to me. arcanist are more about *mad experiments and pseudoscience* things than technology really (the tech side is the union.) Im not trying to be bringing down ideas by these comparisons by the way, its just that I think the factions are so well defined there is little need to break the 4 faction mould. (especially as it is tied to the suits.) back to your idea, arcanists and the union, while closely tied arent the same thing, especially not to the people in malifaux, there is a fear of arcanists attacks within the city as book 2 fluff shows, and the non-union side masters, marcus and rasputina seem like mostly out-of-city business doers. so, what are the arcanists the people of malifaux know and fear as arcanists ... I can imagine acid-vials etc. being used by those.. as well as unholy mergers of flesh and metal (wich the arcanist dont have alot of yet anyway there is more guild members fitting that bill I think ? witchling stalkers, executioner, ryle vs steamborg arachnid, ramos and maybe joss in the arcanists group.)

a testament of my luck vs online things, was both eyeing gallowglass and mary bones back then, when they were still available.. awaiting paypal payment to come in, check back a week later and both were sold out mailed them but never gotten a response, tried looking for them a couple of times then see someone posting that at some gamesdays they were in a big grab-box for only 2.50 euros or something.. but never found them. at my first spiel con decided to ask the GW staff, response was "I dont think it had to do with GW because I know all GW minis out there.".. sure it wasnt *really* GW however it wasnt to his credit that he never heard about the Mad Donna necromunda mini either (and assured me it wasnt by GW too.)

pity, could totally see that box but thanks!.

Night terrors have spirit and nightmare. I was wondering tough if the nightmare part was in *preserving* future potential or is a typo and should it be horror. while thematically it being a nightmare makes a lot of sense (night terror being a more severe nightmare, and the whole mouth for eyes is a nice counter to eyes in hands ) it cant be hired by the dreamer as the dreamer has no *out-of-faction* hiring rules. however from my own experience I know these kind of typos can easily sneak in, especially when it makes alot of sense, and in regards to rising powers (not future potential.) it makes a lot of sense if the night terror is a horror instead, it sets the same basis for molly as all the other henchman in the book and it would thematically fit well with molly's monstrous undead idea. not to mention it would allow her to get a box based on this book, not requiring book 3 material. (2 or 3 night terrors, molly and the rogue necromancy.) it makes sense either way, and I realised I havent seen official comments on all the *where are molly's minions* questions. in addition with so many things being axed for later use, it seems strange to leave something in that has no thematical or rulewise synergies yet (iow, a resurrectionists nightmare creature.) just wanted to check this.

in a change of topic.. slightly.. I happen to like taelor just fine, I just cant get anyway to base her without resorting to clipping and pinning (same with a few other wyrd miniatures.) and from the sound of it clipping and pinning is something I really shouldnt do... (if A=lethal clumsiness and B=need hands in perfect state to make a living A+B= total worst case scenario for me.) any of the other clip-pin disabled have any suggestions on this ?

actually more and more I kind of see the oriental deal being largely a sub-element for resurrectionist (as that ball has been thrown now.) and would like seeing it expanded on beyond kirai and spirits. oriental undead thematically both fit nicodem (fluff) and kirai (atmosphere.) and any undead non spirit geisha could be belles, the other significant subtheme being the mad lab department. (nurses, fleshconstructs.) on the movie its funny after seeing RE:afterlife, I pondered how that style of movie (wanted, nightwatch/daywatch etc.) strangely (and Im considered a heretic now ) are an evolution of sphagetti western movies more so than of action movies. (the duel elements, significance of the soundtrack etc, very focused camera work with zooms etc. and significance of *arenas* for the duels.) and was thinking how fun it would be doing a wild west movie in that atmosphere, exploiting sphagetti western cliches adding steampunk+horror touches and putting it into a modern fast and loud jacket. this comes damn close to what I tought (sans oriental themes.)

geoffrey rush always is a plus too

really ? whats not to like !! ? love the visual experiments too.. really nice, will keep it on my rader

lol, and that does make it impossible for someone to be evil ? evil scientist is one of the most stereotypical representations of a "pure evil" after all, he knows what he is doing, has no regards for the consequences, does purposedly do harm in the progress and the only motivation is a perverse curiosity still my favorite master tough

to me the least "evil" are funnily enough (in order) Hoffmann, Collette, Kirai and the Dreamer (the dreamer himself first, but one could argue the master isnt the dreamer but LCB.. wich would throw him out of the list ) the only ones I would define as evil are Seamus, Mcmourning, Hamelin not many of the others come close. its all personal opinion, it depends how you measure evil. for me those aspects are needed : 1.be fully aware that your acts are evil, 2.the goal being only and purely for personal "gain" (lust, desire, greed, bloodlust.) that on its own is evil allready (power for example isnt.) and be aware of that. there is much more to it offcourse. so how I see it from lesser evils to greater evils : the goodies : Hoffmann - Collette the misguided : the Dreamer (LCB cause) - Kirai - LadyJ the greater gooders : Ramos - Nicodem - Zoraida the warheroes : Perdita - Lilith - Viktorias (?) the egocentric : Pandora - Sonia criid - Leveticus the evil : Seamus - Mcmourning - Hamelin not so sure about : Rasputina - she is all over the place, above all she seems curious, but careless of harm she might potentially do and aware of it.. either egocentric or the evil list for her. Marcus - I dont know anything about him (have I missed fluff in book 1 ?) Som'er - its not yet clear for me if he wants a better life for his kin... or just for his own.

dont like quoting alot but its pretty much all QFT (first time I use that one ) apart from the last point. I was thinking the other day, henchman are ideal to not have an overkill of masters over time, but giving each henchman special forces results in an overkill of not widely usably releases and limiting customizing of groups. I was actually thinking about that the other day, is it just these first henchman all having special forces or is it meant to be that henchman are leaders of special forces always ? I imagine henchman more as an expansion in bigger groups, influencing your selection, and usably (tough more limited.) as leaders of your group, but maybe future henchman could do things like jack daw, allowing customization and access to minis normally not available to your group and also giving new uses, options and synergies to existing profiles. example (not a suggestion, something that makes real sense or something I want perse.) a resurrectionist death marshall type, giving limited access to death marshals and granting them undead, as a henchman with a master thats all there is to him, and when selected as leader it can only hire said death marshals, guild autopsies, mindless dead (including a SS cost to them.) and canine remains. biggest reason would be because that way you always link back to the past, where with (too much) special forces you always move away from it. if you get what I mean.

we are not saying different things as each other you know tough me always being longwinded might be confusing in parts. from malifaux inhabitants point of view, what you describe is still guild in general (what I meant with those things.) but in reality, thats not really what the guild is about, but we do know that because we read *the bigger picture.* there is indeed no zealous character as you describe yet (if ever), but if there ever would be it would fit flawlessly with guild.. not outcast , as it would mean he can join arcanists, neverborn and resurrectionists.. none of wich fit fluffwise, definitely not a whole faction, since organised witchhunt and inquistion had long stopped. solo-fanatic-priests are also stereotypical of weird west genre tough. like carnivale's brother justin character. to get back what you asked basically my idea was : (ignore names ) (Guild) master - reverend Clarence gunton a devout and zealous guild member, eager to serve, but rather considered a pain to the governor general's household he was sent out to this dustbowl town to use his convincing way of speaking to lower the chances of resistance, as the small soulstone mine emptied and was abandoned everyone's interest in the town faded.. yet reverend Clarence gunton still is the zealous representative of the guild there. merciless and misguided, but its not power or wealth he desires. - shotgun with some special soulstone bullet action - some Tome suit manipulation ..mainly because its fluffy - some spell nullifying action - willpower influence - apart from witchling stalkers, can only hire living human models. - pays 1 extra soulstone less for human, non-unique mercenaries. (representing the capability to gather a crowd, being well spoken etc.) - some eye for an eye ability (bounce back or repeat whats used on him.) http://www.shop.battlefield-berlin.de/img_big/acb4cc4986be0f38064dd5d28f634971.jpg (as mentioned before.) totem - Unlingering faith at first it was a voice, while he sees his companion as a messenger sent by a higher power, in reality it is his unlingering faith manifested to a whimsical and scheming individual never leaving his side. http://shop.masq-mini.de/product_info.php?info=p79_2004-Brother-Franziskus.html (has that whole totemy feel.) unique companion - sister Purity sister purity was taken under the care of the reverend at a young age, threating her as he would his own child. as she grew she manifested, like so many people in malifaux, special powers.. in hers the reverend didnt saw the cursed and evil powers he fights.. but a blessing a holy response to all the darkness, while she herself is coming to an age were she questions the guild, she does so in secret, untill she can convince the reverend of the truth, as her love and loyalty to him is pure. - healing abilities - something (aura?) that temporarily prevents unpure creation (raising the dead, creating constructs etc.) - brightness/light related offensive and defencive abilities - ability to "bless" bullets ? - maybe something that temporarily changes undead to living.. way to mess up some spells http://www.shop.battlefield-berlin.de/img_big/76da3ad3436b832d94f93998bcdfa116.jpg (on the right, fits more with a western feel rather than a vatican feel.) Scapegoat/Accused/Sineater/Redemption a bit of a undefined position, mainly influenced by http://www.shop.battlefield-berlin.de/img_big/b0caf6a4bcacbfd878aa995f7a4293cf.jpg and http://www.shop.battlefield-berlin.de/img_big/b4fa7c4b1b728cb083d05d463ae5af43.jpg as well as the scales of justice miniature. static, mostly something that influences (not offensive at all.) specifically related to nightmares, spirits, woes etc. (Guild) Manhunters (Rare 2 to 3) general guild thing, manhunters are merciless and feared hunters who take pride not in taking beasts, monsters and demons.. but men, wether its a high profile union member, a brutal bandit ,a young alleged witch (or doppelganger.) or one of their own, they will never hesitate, never think twice and never regret to pull the trigger for the kill. while a general thing, presentation wise the reverend's most loyal allies and best synergies are manhunters as well. - the whole ruthless, immune to influence etc. thing. - special *bounty* ability making them extra strong against a single unique character (not necessarily human.) until its killed (could be someone has this allready, didnt look at book 1 in a while ) - trigger/spell/talent/ability granting them (temporarily) terrifying - some more intimidation things ? http://www.shop.battlefield-berlin.de/img_big/b11744d3045f5abd2800fe236c14a291.jpg springs to mind. (Lynching) Mob actually outcasts+mercenaries (not guild) , western non-gunslinger/cowboy rabble as described in the initial pages of the book 2 fluff, can be used to both represent a mob orchestrated by the arcanists or resurrectionists, or cheap pawns for the guild (I imagine the 2 ss cost category) tough presentationwise and synergy wise specifically among the reverend's minions.

its double heresy offcourse (1.using non wyrd minis and 2.cutting up a discworld mini ) but if you remove her head she scales quite well, its especially her head that is gigantic. her shoulders are lower than the others.

but thats the beauty of it isnt it ? all this asking about C****S and Mimes, and yet its the easiest one to do yourself, even with the rules,factions and minis available. its all in the paintjob. as for missing fanatics/inquisitors/spread the one truth/supressors without a religious tone... are we reading the same guild fluff ?? because sans the religious tone, that is exactly what the guild is. I personally think that, the way everything is set, no new faction should arrive, everything can be divided among the current factions, the only things not fitting in the main 4 are likely small enough to be a sub-inclusion in the outcasts. I see these 4 factions less like the factions you are used to with warhammer and warmachine etc. but more in line with magic the gathering (the 5 colors counting as factions.) or like miniature games anima tactics and pulpcity have it. I like this direction in miniature games, by focusing on a set amount of allegiances rather than factions you never run into the release hell the faction intensive companies do, because new ideas are put within the existing factions as subfactions. (a good example is the dreamer, he is not really part of the *political* neverborn trio, he is his own standalone force in malifaux just happening to fit in the neverborn/masks allegiance. another good example of how this works is marcus and his beasts, marcus fitting the "tomes"(arcanists) yet the rest of his subfaction is spread all over the place. so as Im always longwinded, I particularily mean, I wouldnt mind seeing the wildwest priest stereotype character, but it would be just another guild member to me, interpreting the guild as a savior kind of status, and instead of working with the mechanical stuff, more of the anti-neverborn, anti-undead type. its funny, Im making some fan-profiles, including fan-fiction and probably some art based on several miniatures I see fitting in malifaux (and most of all miniatures that I have and have no other use for, or some I like but are from the rule-less kind of company.) and Im fluff wise concentrating it on a dusty ex-miner town near malifaux. each faction having a representative there, and that dark age priest is in fact intended as the guild master... an individual seeing the governor general as some kind of savior (instead of tieing in real religion.)

I wouldnt dare but it is meant as the harmless kind of fun I myself love rampant speculation as well

thats the big change coming, rams will become pigs/boars, and the gremlins will become the fourth main faction, while the guild is all ripped apart and spread out among the other factions, Lady J joins the resurrection, the Ortegaz go outcast (or worse... turn out to have a lot in coming with the gremlins, Perdita and Ophelia becoming BFFs) or Abuela throws a shotgun wedding between nino and nekima... its not yet decided. both Hoffmann and Criid go arcanist, and as its getting crowded there it causes Rasputina to leave (since she likes evil creatures she joins up with the neverborn.. despite heavy objections by Lilith.) while having two lovechilds with Zoraida, Marcus decides to stay with the arcanists, but the two still meet in secret. the Governor general and Lucius both turned out to be gremlins in disguise. Leveticus contemplated joining the resurrection but he kept dying and this frustrated Nicodem, shouting out "its UNdead ok !? not dead-alive-dead-alive" besides his young-women fetish freaked the ressers out. (kirai was glad she was too old for his tastes.) Hamelin ran into a swamp filled with bug eating frogs, now he is just an empty shell.. he is plotting a return tough. Viktorias are no more, just one Viktoria, the doppelganger turned out to be killjoy in disguise, wich completely freaked her out (not to mention the many men either of them dated, especially the one who was with her/him/it during the big revelation), she painted her skin green and is the first non-gremlin gremlin mistress. killjoy followed, he likes pigs. there I spoiled all

well... he does complete color circle (red was missing.) and IS called a WAR pig after all

pestilence is never named as such nor associated with the white rider in the bible, its the association with apollo (arrows) by some theologists that gave him that status in pop culture. assuming the riders are *negative* from a heavenly point of view (wich is debatable as the scripts describing them leave alot of interpretation.) then a maybe even more likely candidate for the first rider would be false prophepecies/lies/unholy zeal etc. (the crown, the described *lightness* etc. all give the interpretation of a heroic and good personality, yet the bow has no arrows (wich kind of nullifies the apollo/pestilence association.) so can mean empty promises.) it also makes more sense in the order of their arrival, empty words/lies lead to war/struggle wich leads to faminine/emptyness wich leads to death/void/the end. based on that Id say : white horse/pestilence = mechanical rider (mages, unions, organised crime it does fit a biblical false prophet thing.) red horse/war = hooded rider black horse/famine = Guild rider (the famine rider specifically measures and judges people, so thats a no brainer ) pale horse/death = Dead rider but thats assuming the above mentioned hypothesis. based on colors, the dead rider's horse is closest to pale (death.) hooded rider is closest to white (lets keep calling him pestilence.) and the mechanical rider is black (famine.) leaving the red horse (war) as a potential guild rider. this combo isnt really without further interpretation either... the hooded rider has alot to do with light (the place of the sun.) was the first (neverborn being the oldest faction of the 4) and it is their world (crown.) that said, the mechanical rider doesnt really measure well with famine. what does it all mean ? that you can easily back up any theory with interpretation is there even coming a fourth rider ?

your (right?) story inspired me into a "fan-art" piece wich Im currently working on... not really pig tails tough :\

the entire forum is full with that info tough, are you sure he doesnt mean the revealed to be in the making book 3 ?

its the doppelganger. when I draw birthday cards I regularily use those russian doll things, and since I was a bit inspiration-less on the doppelganger based on its visual I decided to go with its basic idea... a neverborn in a faux human body. I didnt even know about the wicked doll at that time

dunno if I should put in a spoiler warning, havent even read(or have) the book yet, tough this crossed my mind based on spoilers given by others in this topic... soo... spoiler warning I was thinking... Justice becoming an avatar of death or an agent of death, sets things right in fantasy fiction at last death personified and grim reaper (types) are always identified with the undead, wich I always found unfitting. After all necromancers and undead are breaking death's law by staying in the realm of the living by unfair means. if death was personified, Lady J would in fact be the perfect one to return and give power to as she is hunting the undead, at such she doesnt just execute the guild's law, but the law of death itself.