False Claim and Practiced Production

[retnab]

So, this comes from the recent errata to the Union Miners.  Specifically, the new wording on False Claim that states: "During this Turn's Upkeep Step, if both of these Scheme Markers are still in play, discard one of these Scheme Markers."  Combined with Practiced Productions, whose relevant portion of the Trap Doors ability states: "If this happens, at the end of the Turn, one friendly Scheme Marker in play must be discarded, if able."  Since the Upkeep step is when all end of turn effects trigger, I see two ways that these two effects can interact:

1) Player chooses to discard one of the False Claim Scheme Markers for the Trap Doors effect.  After this, since there is only one False Claim Scheme Marker remaining it does not need to be discarded for the False Claim effect.

2) Player chooses to discard one of the False Claim Scheme Markers for the Trap Doors effect.  Since at the start of the Upkeep Step there were two False Claim Scheme Markers, the second False Claim Scheme Marker must also be discarded.

So which is correct?

[spooky_squirrel]

As I mentioned in the original post, page 32 of the pdf/little book:

Quote

1. Upkeep

The Upkeep Step is where the end of the Turn bookkeeping takes place. Effects that do not list a specific duration, or which end at the end of the Turn, end during the Upkeep Step.

In the unlikely event that the order in which multiple effects ending would affect the outcome, then the affected model’s owning player determines the order in which they are resolved. If models from both players are affected, the First Player’s models will resolve their effects first.

 

Since Practiced Production states "end of turn" for its effect, so it would trigger during Upkeep. As the acting player (affected model's owning player with regards to the Union Miner and Practiced Production model), you would decide the order of resolution.

 

If you resolve False Claim first, then #1 is what you will see.

Edited January 12, 2017 by spooky_squirrel
added in explicit answer

[JimO]

Does that mean that those two triggers are effectively the same?  That seems needlessly complicated...

[spooky_squirrel]

1 hour ago, JimO said:

Does that mean that those two triggers are effectively the same?  That seems needlessly complicated...

They're not the same, one checks for any friendly scheme marker being on the table, the other checks for both False Claim markers being on the table.

Practiced Production gives its carrier an ability that puts a scheme marker in play at the beginning of their activation, then calls for removing a friendly scheme marker at the end of the turn (Upkeep).

False Claim is a (1) action that puts two scheme markers on the table, and as of the errata, if both are still in play at the end of the turn (Upkeep), one must be discarded. This check would be done when resolving the action (go from model to model to check for Upkeep step resolutions).

 

Where they overlap is when the removal happens: during upkeep. If you remove the friendly scheme marker that Practiced Production tells you to and it happens to be one of the False Claim markers, when you check the False Claim upkeep, only one is in play so you don't have to discard any from that set (assuming you only used False Claim once that turn). If you check in reverse order, then you'll lose a marker from the False Claim pair and then any other one claim marker as a result of Practiced Production. Since there are multiple effects resolving that can have an effect on one another, you determine the order in which they are resolved (page 32, little rule book/PDF); more explicitly this comes about with this sequence:

1. Showgirl model with Practiced Production resolves its Trap Doors ability first. To resolve it in the Upkeep step, the player selects any friendly scheme marker in play and discards it. There's no conditional to check to see if it happens beyond a friendly scheme marker being in play. Player selects one of a pair of False Claim markers to discard and removes it.
2. Union Miner that used False Claim resolves the ability, checking to see if both False Claim markers from one use of the (1) action are still in play. Since only one of them is left, there is no need to discard it for False Claim. Player continues with rest of Upkeep step.

 

[JimO]

What I meant was "During the Upkeep Step" and "At the End of the Turn".  Those seem like two different trigger timing points, but if they're functionally equivalent then having only one would make things more clear.  I see how once they are equivalent the order is chosen by the person with both models and how choosing practiced production first would allow one marker removed to satisfy both conditions.

I learned a thing...well, two things! 

[spooky_squirrel]

2 hours ago, JimO said:

What I meant was "During the Upkeep Step" and "At the End of the Turn".  Those seem like two different trigger timing points, but if they're functionally equivalent then having only one would make things more clear.  I see how once they are equivalent the order is chosen by the person with both models and how choosing practiced production first would allow one marker removed to satisfy both conditions.

I learned a thing...well, two things! 

Page 32 specifies that anything that specifies a duration of "End of Turn" or no specific duration at all is handled in the Upkeep step, it's a catch all so that abilities/effects are terminated before scoring unless they specify otherwise.

 

Learning never stops

[solkan]

Yep, according to the Upkeep Step rules the only difference between those two phrases is stylistic.

Note that "During this Turn's Upkeep Step" part of the wording wasn't changed by the errata, for whatever reasons.  So this is more a case of "I didn't notice this before" rather than the errata changing something.