M2E Rasputina or Ramos

[graeme27uk]

I am considering getting either of the sets above to get me back on the road to Malifaux. These are the Wave 1 masters that really have appeal to me (Wave 2 I am spoilt for choice!).

However, what are the pro's / con's of each?

What are the play styles of each - I know Raspi is a range blaster with ice mirror

shenanigans whilst Ramos is a summoner with exploding creations.

Are the "out of the box" crews good enough to field as they are?

Raspi from experience tends to be fragile and if a player targets the relatively weak ice mirrors then she is forced into the open and will die quickly.

Ramos - I am concerned about availability of scrap counters to get him going. He can have lots of constructs but IF he can summon them. Can he do ranged "blasting" well?

How do they fair against other masters?

[mythicFOX]

I'm a Ramos player, and so a little biased. His box has a lot of good stuff in it. I'd recommend adding an Electric Creation to it to give you easy scrap access early in the game.

As you say Ramos is a summoner so provided you focus on a bit of scrap management with him he's very effective at it. While he has a ranged attack it's used as more of a finishing move. He's more focused on buffing the nearby constructs, or blowing them up. He can hand out offensive or defensive buffs and heal his constructs.

Ramos is fairly strong and only has a couple of weaker match ups that I'm aware of. Played right he's a force to be reckoned with IMO.

I can't talk much about Raspy as I don't play her.

[Fenton Crack]

I play both Raspy and Ramos as my "mains." While both being Arcanists, their model pool does not share large synergy between the the two like many in-faction masters would. Raspy, more than Ramos, kind of does her own thing. As a summoner, Ramos might be a bit more expensive to start with due to the extra models you may need, but overall might be more of a bargain as you add other Arcanists, such as Mei Fang, who can share many models well.

The link below is a beginning Raspy post I put a pretty extensive reply to with a a breakdown to Raspy and her crew:

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?49256-Rasputina-help-for-a-noob&p=654459#post654459

Note that there are a few typos in the post, such as my citing the Wendigo's charge distance at 10 instead of twelve and my talking about the Wendigo's and the Horcat Pride in the same sentence and then mentioning Frozen Heart as if the Pride has it too, but hopefully it can be some aid to you as far as building a Raspy crew.

As far as Ramos, Mythic Fox is quite the authority and already chimed in. My Ramos play is just an effort to replicate his, so I would have nothing to add except that you should check out his blog (linked in his signature) and seek out his old Ramos posts for some great pointers, especially his opening using an EC, then Ramos' Magnetism for a free move and killing of the EC, which leaves you up field with a scrap counter and 3 AP ready to start the spider factory.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Fenton Crack

[graeme27uk]

Thanks for the replies. I am not too concerned about being synergy between masters and crew. I used to have quite an extensive collection of models for Malifaux.

Is Ramos a one-trick pony in that he summons spiders then sends them to do his bidding or blow them up as bombs? Either them or the Electric Creations he can do for "free"?

Same with Raspy - one trick pony in the sense of December's Curse.

Choosing a master is always tricky!

[edonil]

Dunno about Ramos, but Raspy can get some interesting tactics going with Ice Pillar and her Paralyze ability, so that's something to keep in mind. Yes, you can spam December's Curse over and over, but there's a lot more she can do to contribute to fighting.

[graeme27uk]

Again, concerns regarding Ramos / Rasputina.

Both seem pretty pidgeon-holed in terms of the crew they would best suit. Ramos would suit lots of constructs whilst Raspi would be best with any with Frozen Heart. Diverting away from those seems to weaken the crew's overall effectiveness.

Some of the models I like in the Arcanist faction are:

Gunsmith

Oxfordian Mages

Metal Gamin

Fire Gamin

Union Miners

This is on top of the usual constructs and December Cult crew models. But how much synergy would they have with Ramos / Raspi?

Also, regarding Raspi in particular, is the Ice Golem any better in 2.0E than it was in 1.5E? It got a bad rep in 1.5E with other models considered a better investment. Is that still the case? If so then the box set would seem sub-par and its a big part of the box!

Finally, I've been looking for batreps on both but they are hard to find as the batreps seem to be a mix of 1.5E and 2.0E causing some confusion.... anyway this can be separated?

[OTP]

Hi Graeme,

the fire gamin and metal gamin are both constructs as well, so fit in with Ramos mechanics wise. Raspy also has a (1) action to give a friendly model frozen heart for a turn. the gunsmiths fluff wise are M and SU heavies, so fluff wise makes sense for ramos to have them about

Pete

[DavicusPrime]

I play Ramos and have faced off against Raspy once since M2E.

Ramos: I have used the trick mentioned above with the hired Electrical Creation and Ramos' Magnetism to start the summoning. I've also just started out with a hired swarm and a pair of single spiders. Both ways seemed to work great. My MVP for Ramos' crew was Howard Langston (Howie) in two out of 4 games. With Imbued Protection, he held the center against the Ice Golem for quite a while and also held a whole side the entire game vs. the Viks, taking out a Ronin, Hannah and tar-pitted a strong arm.

I found the combination of individual spiders latch on ability and Ramos' Ranged attack to be quite effective as it ignores armor and doesn't randomize when used against engaged models. A great way to keep the old guy in the fight. And when a construct bites it in LOS and inside 8" he heals 2 points, so having construct body guards is a good move.

Joss is very effective as well and once he starts chopping things up, he drops scrap counters regardless of what he kills. Giving Ramos more material to work with.

I was having a lot of trouble utilizing the Brass arachnid early on with having to be within 6" to cast reactivate, but with a little planning and a good card in the ole' control hand helps out with that.

The main lack in a Ramos crew is ranged attacks. I've used a gunsmith once early on in the beta with mixed results. I suspect that the current rules are more favorable. He helped greatly with softening up the Ronin that Howie eventually eliminated but had trouble getting damage to stick on the Viks.

As for the spiders... A swarm is awesome for it's ability to "clean up" scheme markers. If an opponent looks like he's setting up to claim line in the sand or other such schemes, the swarm can walk into the middle of them and eat every scheme marker in a 4" pulse. Just be careful of your own markers as they eat 'em all.

The single spiders are useful objective runners and a general nuisance. Latch on can make the more difficult targets easier for the rest of your crew to handle and their ability to be used as bombs by Ramos makes them dangerous anytime.

Metal Gamin seem to work well with Ramos and Mei Feng. Their primary abilities tend to favor a defensive stance. So seem to work best as bodyguards.

Gunsmiths are a needed ranged threat any arcanst can use. I think they work best with Kaeris and her burning centric crew, but can hold their own with the others, as mentioned above.

Fire Gamin aren't really all that impressive to me. They, again seem to favor Kaeris over other masters. Ramos' spiders can do most of what they can do and can be spawned as needed.

Haven't tested out the Miners or Mages yet, so others will have to report on those.

Raspy: I've only played against her once (using Ramos) but it was a pretty hard fight. The Ice Golem was a potent force to be reckoned with. It and Howie met in the middle and beat the smeg out of each other during turns 2 & 3. Raspy never had to expose herself the whole game, using her minions to launch her spells. So I never really got a shot at her. I won in the end by VP. But losses were high.

-DavicusPrime

Edited December 28, 2013 by DavicusPrime

[graeme27uk]

Lack of range is bothering. Prefer to keep things at range. Though I guess inevitably things will get into melee.

With Raspi, what is to stop people sending crew after her, she is rubbish up close. I guess:

1) the aim of the game is not kill the master - its complete the strategies / schemes

2) you keep someone bodyguarding her like the ice golem or such...

3) rasp hides in cover using minions as the focus for her castings - so in theory she should not get into melee.... in theory

How does Ramos do in games where the opponent doesn't drop scrap? Is he self-sufficient enough?

This is why I avoid resser masters.... too much reliance on an abstract resource.

Edited December 28, 2013 by graeme27uk

[DavicusPrime]

Raspy's ability to hand out slow and paralysis as well as letting her minions do the dirty work while she stays in cover is going to keep folks off of her the early part of the game. Opponents with movement tricks are probably the biggest threat.

She has plenty of ways to protect herself as well. Cold Nights lets her put up two touching 50mm Ice Pillars between her and an opponent. Child of December lets her ignore pulses and blasts as well as lets her use a 0 action to thrash anyone she successfully paralyzes. And then her defensive trigger shuts down the attacker's activation once they land a hit.

Just because she's not a melee master doesn't mean she's defenseless.

-DavicusPrime

[graeme27uk]

Raspi's minions are a bit of a concern. Ice gamin from their stats seem pretty weak - cheap but weak.

The ice golem - solid but easy to hit.

Just trying to work out what to spend my dosh on..... don't want to get a master and then find out they don't suit me... been there done that and its frustrating.

[LupusFerreus]

Would it be possible for you to borrow them from someone else? Or if you're not that bothered by it: proxying. If you buy the normal (big) rulebook, you can do that.

[DavicusPrime]

Raspi's minions are a bit of a concern. Ice gamin from their stats seem pretty weak - cheap but weak.

The ice golem - solid but easy to hit.

I'm in agreement on all of the above. But strength isn't the only consideration for Ice Gamin. Their ability to be Raspy's extension and their ability to complete schemes is their main strength. The Ice Golem is meant to be a cruise missile that punishes you for killing it.

The december acolyte is another very good model for Raspy. Their harpoon gun trigger can be used to pull attackers off of Raspy and the From the Shadows ability lets them be in the right place from the beginning of the game.

Just trying to work out what to spend my dosh on..... don't want to get a master and then find out they don't suit me... been there done that and its frustrating.

Again, I agree. I started with Ramos in 1.5 and was very disappointed as he got overshadowed by just about everybody post book 1. I've been having a lot more fun with him in M2E. So I guess I got lucky this time around.

-DavicusPrime

[graeme27uk]

I have the big rulebook on order - just waiting for it to be back in stock and arrive.

I have the mini-rule book so I have been reading up on the changes. I have been proxying with counters but not that much chance to play games to test them out. I could play against myself to test out the masters I guess.

Just don't want to hang around for wave 2 as that seems ages away.

I keep flipping between masters at the moment about which ones I want to get.... can't quite seem to pin myself down to one.

[Fenton Crack]

You are correct that Ramos does not have the range Raspy does, but he is much tankier than she is and often wants to be in the thick of the battle anyway, so i would not let that discourage you from playing him.

With his Armor +2 and his Repulsion defensive trigger he is pretty survivable in melee despite his Df 4, since the armor obviously reduces most damage and with the trigger he can prevent the second hit of a charge with a tome (if the melee range of the opposing model is less than 2", or if they did not end the charge in base contact even a 2"-3" range charge can be foiled).

In melee, he has a 1/2/7 attack that is only really good on severe, but focusing it and then cheating the high damage can be really good. He is less likely to get stuck in engagement if he does not want to duke it out in melee since you can use his Magnetism zero action to escape via a push if there is a construct around.

Since many of Ramos' upgrades need him to me within 6"-8" to hand out buffs or healing, you are not going to be sitting in back like you would be with Raspy anyway, so a long range is really less important for him, but as far as ranged attacks, Ramos' shooting attack (Electrical Fire) is only 8" range, but again you are likely to be up-field anyway, and it is a great attack in that it both ignores Armor, and you don't have to flip for the target when shooting into engagement (good in itself, even better when you have the spiders running around because when they are in contact with the enemy they suffer -1 to Df per spider, and you wont have to worry about hitting them by mistake.

If you are worried about running out of scrap, you can take Joss, who produces scrap no matter who he kills, or take the Electric Summoning upgrade to summon EC's which will ultimately give scrap as well.

At the end of the day, if you really want more range, you always add the Gunsmiths, or even hire Hans, who at 36" has the longest range in the game.

[OTP]

Raspy can also take armour of December to give her a push for a one action,

[graeme27uk]

Just curious and for future consideration.

How does Hoffman compare to Ramos? They are both construct heavy teams. Can both use the same sort of crew / constructs? Can Ramos hire Guild constructs and Hoffman hire Arcanist constructs?

I was also considering Leveticus as again there is synergy with the constructs so I can multiply the use of my crews.

[Fenton Crack]

Just curious and for future consideration.

How does Hoffman compare to Ramos? They are both construct heavy teams. Can both use the same sort of crew / constructs? Can Ramos hire Guild constructs and Hoffman hire Arcanist constructs?

I was also considering Leveticus as again there is synergy with the constructs so I can multiply the use of my crews.

Hoffman plays pretty different than Ramos, being dependent on the constructs around him, rather than the other way around, and using Power Loop to borrow from them.

Ramos cannot hire Guild constructs nor Levi's (unless they are a Merc).

Hoffman is still in beta, so things could change (although I would doubt by much since he seems to pretty dialed in), but with the Arcanaist Assets upgrade (only costs a SS at present) Hoffman can take up to 4 MS&U Arcanist constructs. I do not know of any way he can share Levi's though, unless they are a Merc, and one of those even has an ability forbidding him being hired by Guild.