Starting Leviticus?

[Trevelyan]

You may not need to do it on turn 1 of course, depending on what you're facing, but not taking the option is a mistake IMO, and a bad one.

But that is still making the same claim.

You will always benefit from the second waif, but you may not always want/need to spend the 2ss for a canine remains that will do nothing for you, and dedicate the activation of at least one model in your first turn to creating the waif from your own resources. Sometimes deciding not to take the canine remains is not a mistake because you don't need that option and there are others available.

What I am saying is that you shouldn't always assume you always have a 2ss penalty on any Levi list because you can't don't dare leave home without the second Waif. If you have an interesting crew which runs you a few ss more than you would like so you can't fit the canine remains in too, and if you are facing one of the many crews who don't have the ability to gank Levi early, then running with one waif for the first few Turns is a perfectly viable approach and may even be better than denying yourself a good minion because you feel you must have the second waif.

Having a second waif/canine remains is good, all things being equal. But "you don't have room in that list for waif fodder" is not a valid reason for rejecting it in all circumstances.

[Joel]

but you can't tell, unless in a declared master event, if you will be up against a crew that can "gank Levi early" when you hire your crews.

In any faction your opponent declares, there is certainly a crew/master that can do this job.

so yes, if you are in a situation where you know beyond doubt that your opponent can't get you turn 1/2 then yep, I will broadly agree with your position

however, when you are not playing declared master, it is better IMO to prepare for the worst case scenario and take the dog to ensure you don't get caught with your metaphorical pants down.

I have run Levi with lower stones than I'd wish to due to that doggy (and wanting to have a tough interesting crew) - but I'd rather run stone-lite than waif-lite.

[Adran]

I will confess I was partially ignoring Bete Noir in activation count as she often is buried at the start of a turn. So if I have 8 figures (by no means swarm) and you go first, I will get 5 activations after you finish. And having looked at the list a bit more I think Ashes would end up more as a late activation than an early activation in the list. (I had originally thought it might want to be an early activation, but I imagine early turns are probably going to be Waif - Jack Daw - Leveticus - Ashes and Dust. With Bete Noir activating after she appears if you do kill the enemy. Or just getting buried again the activation after she arrives before she activates.

Most of my 35 SS crews are looking around 6-8 figures. I don't play much in the way of swarm myself but 4 7 cost minions, my master and a totem will probably cost me 30 ss.

(Granted the new beatdown seems to be going more for smaller crews). And Thats before any summoning I might do.

My understandign of that crew is that it would need to be in my face to do most of its tricks. You are also largely forcing killing Leveticus every turn or have very little hand. Its not a problem in itself, but it is forceing some activation control, card usage and waif protection.

I don't think its unlikely that I can get most of the crew in range of one of your threats each turn.

Whilst you can summon more minions, you are needing to get up to me to do so.

Likewise, Bete can appear from Leveticus or the Waif, if you want, but then she isn't that scary. he wants to be appearing from the death or my models, so she is right where you want her to be. So I think it is pretty likely that I should get at least one turn where you have focused on bring your crew to me and are allowing me to focus on killing you.

I've not played against the crew, I'm only working on theory, but I have faced the models indiuvidually and been able to exploit their weaknesses. I've even killed Jack Daw with a Lucius crew, so no Magical weapons, and only one damaging spell which is suit intensive.

I think if it just appeared on the table I would have struggled, but having had some time to think about it and plan, I think its killable. Each part requires different things to kill it well (although Witchling stalkers are bad news for both Jack Daw and Bete noir) but Conversely I would imagine just about every list will contain the right parts to kill at least 2 parts of it with little effort.

[Sonova]

It really depends what you mean by very little effort. Even if you had magical weapons Jack is a bit more than an inconvenience since he can shut you down by sitting behind a wall with Severed Ties creating a no man's land around him.

And anyway if you are wasting resources trying to kill him you wont have the juice to take on Leveticus or Ashes. No matter what you do to Jack he will get a chance to flip for Df, WP , Ca etc etc and its not as if his stats are 0. Every high card you flip or cheat into the effort to kill Daw are cards that you will never see again for that turn. So unless 'Daws been flipping rubbish all night and you've been flipping like a pimp, its likely you will end up using more resources than the Daw player because no matter what happens the worst result for him is the loss of 1 card. Not to mention all the AP you sink into that venture unless you somehow have an all magic weapon crew.

Levi and Ashes love it when you no longer have the high cards to cheat or flip while not overly needing high cards themselves to do their tricks since one has CB 7 and the spells generally needing high cards for a successful resist even at bare minimum.

Probability is a finite resource in Malifaux and thats pretty much the point of the list. I do agree that 1 waif is risky but its often doable. You just have to get used to it, which admittedly i am still in the process of nutting out.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Sonova

[Trevelyan]

but you can't tell, unless in a declared master event, if you will be up against a crew that can "gank Levi early" when you hire your crews.

For a game which is officially faction based, the majority of events do seem to be declared master. And I, for one, tend to play rather more 'friendly' games where I know exactly which master I'll be facing, and 90% of the crew that will come along too.

I have run Levi with lower stones than I'd wish to due to that doggy (and wanting to have a tough interesting crew) - but I'd rather run stone-lite than waif-lite.

Stone-lite isn't much of an issue for Levi. His ability to control his hand is usually sufficient that, as long as you have the ss to power through the opposing master, you don't need any more. Most masters want some stones to boost defence and prevent damage, neither of much is usually a concern for Levi.

Personally, outside of a competitive event where I need to be cautious, I think there is good value in playing with one waif and wouldn't stretch myself to add the Canine Remains. Playing with only one waif, even against tougher opponants, is a valuable experience.

[Joel]

yep, for your meta I totally agree with you. Most of the events I attend are declare faction only - with only a few declare masters ones here and there. In friendly games, anything goes of course

I have quite a varied meta with people swapping factions and crews on a regualr basis, so I can never know what I'm up against - keeps me on my toes.

[Trevelyan]

I will confess I was partially ignoring Bete Noir in activation count as she often is buried at the start of a turn. So if I have 8 figures (by no means swarm) and you go first, I will get 5 activations after you finish.

Why ignore Bete? If you are assuming that you will kill Ashes & Dust then it is a given that Bete will get to appear - she can pop out when A&D dies.

And having looked at the list a bit more I think Ashes would end up more as a late activation than an early activation in the list. (I had originally thought it might want to be an early activation, but I imagine early turns are probably going to be Waif - Jack Daw - Leveticus - Ashes and Dust. With Bete Noir activating after she appears if you do kill the enemy. Or just getting buried again the activation after she arrives before she activates.)

Something like that, yes. A&D generally want to activate after Levi unless he is reforming that Turn. And Levi benefits from activating late. Waifs are a non event so will always activate early unless there is a compoelling reason for something else to go. Given those four models and no other circumstances, I would say that your order Waif, Jack, Levi, Ashes, is spot on.

My understandign of that crew is that it would need to be in my face to do most of its tricks.

Yes and no. Ultimately it would prefer to be close up, but not in the first turn or two. The opening salvos would come from Levi himself with an effective range of up to 12". Given his free movement and casting expert, he can start 15" away and still hit you with three Unnatural Wastings, or 18" away and hit you with two (where one is enough to bring anything with 9Wds or less into Necrotic Unmaking territory). If you get anywhere near Levi in Turn 1 then a large chunk of your 6 model crew could be looking shaky without anyone on the Levi side getting close.

Alternatively, Levi could set them up and A&D could steamroller in and start killing whatever is left. Anything on 3Wd or less will becomes a steampunk abomination if A&D lands a hit, and something in range of Unnatural Wasting from Levi is in range of a move+charge from A&D. Anything with only 2Wd left is an iffy choice to attack A&D in melee given that his trigger couls convert them into a SPA too. A&D needn't get into melee, but if he does then it'll be because he can afford to risk the blows. And one thing you don't want is A&D sitting with a couple of SPAs in the middle of your crew.

You are also largely forcing killing Leveticus every turn or have very little hand. Its not a problem in itself, but it is forceing some activation control, card usage and waif protection.

Protecting a waif is a given, but killing Levi is a (0) action for A&D, no cards involved. It is one of the reasons why he wants to stay reasonable close to Levi and activate after him. In tha above scenario, Levi could free move into range with Necromantic Sacrifice, stack the deck to hit with multiple Unnatural Wastings against multiple targets, then A&D could activate, move up a little past Levi, sacrifice him for a (0) action and charge an enemy while still preserving a high hand for defence and, ideally, his trigger against someone on low Wd.

I don't think its unlikely that I can get most of the crew in range of one of your threats each turn. Whilst you can summon more minions, you are needing to get up to me to do so.

Where "up to me" is "within 1) inches of me", yes. Although I've highlighted a situation where A&D might want to rush in (on his own terms) a Levi crew can happily hold back for another turn while Levi himself turns a couple of your crew into SPAs from a distance. That means that A&D only needs to survive a ranged attack, which will certainly struggle to kill both him and the Ashen Core

Likewise, Bete can appear from Leveticus or the Waif, if you want

Or A&D. Don't forget that.

She wants to be appearing from the death or my models, so she is right where you want her to be.

No. Bete ideally wants to appear form the death of one of my models killed in melee so she can immediately retaliate against the target which killed her. You seem to be forgetting that A&D is one of those models in a scenario where you expect to be fighting him in melee.

I've not played against the crew, I'm only working on theory, but I have faced the models indiuvidually and been able to exploit their weaknesses. I've even killed Jack Daw with a Lucius crew, so no Magical weapons, and only one damaging spell which is suit intensive.

Assuming that you are talking about Lucious' Hidden Sniper spell, then allowing Jack Daw to die to that is a failure on the part of Jack's Player. That doesn't make Jack Daw an easy kill, it makes your opponent thoughtless.

Of course Jack Daw can be killed. As can Bete and Ashes & Dust (although the last time I saw A&D go down remotely easily it was to two consecutive activations from Lord Chompy Bits). But just as you might know how to kill them, so too should the person playing them know how to keep them alive. And no one is going to let you have 5 activations against an undefended Ashes & Dust if they have a modicum of sense.

---------- Post added at 12:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:40 PM ----------

I have quite a varied meta with people swapping factions and crews on a regualr basis, so I can never know what I'm up against - keeps me on my toes.

Locally people vary crews, but I/we are usually fairly open about what we intend to play ahead of the game. I have crews for Levi, Hamelin, Perdita and Hoffman, and while I could easily declare faction (Outcasts or Guild) and retain the element of surprise with a fair difference between the crews I field in each case, in practice I rarely do. Most of the time I prefer it if people know what crew I will be playing and give at least some thought to making the game challenging for me. Facing a lot of Ht1 and Insignificant models with low Wp when I have brought Hamelin along makes for an easy game but isn't much fun, after all!

[Sonova]

Remember that Levi kills anything up to Wd 9 in 2 spells (wasting does 6 because of rounding up). Which means things rapidly go down hill for your opponent the moment you get in range. Your cards in hand really shouldnt matter at all because you should be stacking your deck with lessons and stoning to power up those two spells anyway.

The only real reason why you'd want a dog for your second waif in turn 1 is so you can muck a super terrible hand or go for the manifestation. But a super terrible hand in the context of Levi would be something like 7 cards <5, which while possible is statistically improbable. It also means you'll probably be flipping gold though so meh, silver linings. You can quite comfortably keep levi alive a couple of turns and still have a decent amount of cards before feeding him to A&D.

Also if you want to be a competitive player, the crews that are strong against Levi (in all his configurations) tend to be weaker against the dominant meta choices out there. As people have pointed out, if you declare OUTCASTS most people will stress out because of the chance that you may put Leveticus and his friends on the table instead of the more conventional (but no less ridiculous) Viks, Korps or Gremlins since they probably wont be set up to deal with him.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Sonova