How do you win with hamelin now?

[Ausplosions]

ITT : Someone whinges about something they have never tried, asks for advice from people who have, and then tells those people they are wrong.

---------- Post added at 07:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:53 AM ----------

For what its worth, I have played a number of times post errata, about 5 I think, and not lost once.

You're doing it wrong.

[spectre923]

I never told anyone they were wrong.If someone would like to explain how to best keep him alive that is all I am asking.I haven't played him yet because I have only known about the rules change for a couple days. I only just joined this board very recently.In a previous post I stated that I was going to give him a few tries.And I can't be "doing it wrong" if I haven't done it at all so that post made little sense.

[Setoth]

I Don't need to lose a game to know how to read his new rules.His durability took a massive hit.If he goes down you have virtually no chance of success.It seems like the only way to keep him alive is to blow a bunch of stones on some surplus stolen.I have the mini's but it seems like a waste of stones.

Reading the rules is only one component of determining how well a model/crew will work well. Read the rest of the forum. There are threads upon threads of ideas for crew compositions, model combinations, skill combinations, etc. where people come up with a theory...and then test that theory by playing it. Sometimes the idea works. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes playing a random match sparked a crazy idea. All you can do by reading the rules and not playing is try to mentally simulate as many interactions between variables as possible. With no reference, no visualization of positioning, no terrain usage, not being put into dangerous situations and looking for answers in talents you may have dismissed etc. you're basically creating idealized situations in your head. And by idealized I don't mean "best situation possible," I mean ideas that conform to your logic and don't necessarily reflect what actually plays out.

I'd suggest playing some games with Lucidicide's advice so far and see where it takes you, with regards to Obeys and all the rest. See how squishy Hamelin is in practice rather than in theory. Because I promise you as squishy as Hamelin's stats suggest, he's not as squishy as Kirai's 2 def 8 wounds-that-she-spends-to-summon and her army of spirits that don't block LOS. But she seems to do alright.

Edited to remove uncalled for disrespectful tone.

Edited January 31, 2013 by Setoth

[spectre923]

Yet no one has answered the only real question I have left. What is the best way to keep him alive? There is no idealization involved that question. Lucidicide was kind enough to point out that if he dies you will most likely lose the game and he has played him so where is there theoryfaux in that? Am I playing theoryfaux because I trusted advice from someone who has more experience and doesn't make snide remarks at a person asking a legitimate question?

[Hateful Darkblack]

The best way to keep him alive: Keep a Stolen nearby behind cover. If anything gets close, Hamelin can use Soulstones to survive the attack, and then use one of his many brutal spells to make them regret doing so. The thing about defending him, really, is that you need to commit a lot of resources to attacking him, and it's not worth doing so if you know that he's just going to come back to life again when you do, especially since he'll probably get a brutal counterattack with spells, rats, and so on.

[Setoth]

Yet no one has answered the only real question I have left. What is the best way to keep him alive? There is no idealization involved that question. Lucidicide was kind enough to point out that if he dies you will most likely lose the game and he has played him so where is there theoryfaux in that? Am I playing theoryfaux because I trusted advice from someone who has more experience and doesn't make snide remarks at a person asking a legitimate question?

"You'll want Stolen -- there might be one turn in a game where I don't summon one of the things. They can be weird bodyguards for Hamelin, but mostly you need models to sac for Hamelin's spells. Stolen are your target.

If anyone comes close to Hamelin, Obedience them to charge away. If they are Immune to Influence, try to have a Stolen Succumb them. Not always easy, but many things that are Immune to Influence do not have a great Df. If you don't think an Obedience will work, use Understand the Soulless to force a Wp duel to attack you (any time you can make your opponent cheat is pure profit).

Remember that if you summon a Stolen and then sac it, you can often do it in such a way that the -2Wp will hit your target, making most of your abilities easier.

Pipes is your friend for anything Wp5 or less. With luck, you can do damage, get a Charge with it, and make it Insignificant. That's an amazing combination for 1AP. Even if it doesn't work out, you can probably get your opponent to cheat to avoid that."

That's Lucidicide's post on the first page.

And the issue is more tone than anything else. I realize I didn't help (hence why I went back and edited my post) but you sound very defeatist about a master that was previously nearly unbeatable, and continue to sound very deafetist to people who are regularly winning with him. Korrosion's comment was a joke but your response was going back to yet another reason Hamelin has difficulties winning. Which ruffles more feathers if you have yet to actually play a game and open up with the OP that you did.

[spectre923]

People who CLAIM to be regularly winning. Possibly to bait an inflammatory response. This is the internet after all. Why hop into a thread who's op you don't agree with unless it's to stir up an argument? It is easy for me to tell which posters offer solid advice now at least.Having to deal with stupid remarks and baseless conjecture about my thought processes (which only I am privy to anyways)is something I expected.The people who offered real advice with actual explanations attached without pointlessly attacking me have my thanks.I look forward to the guides/tacticas.

[Adran]

I Don't need to lose a game to know how to read his new rules.His durability took a massive hit.If he goes down you have virtually no chance of success.It seems like the only way to keep him alive is to blow a bunch of stones on some surplus stolen.I have the mini's but it seems like a waste of stones.

When I read Hamelins stats I see a different story. I see average to above average defensive stats. I see the options to force duals to attack him. I see a recursive ability which will see him coming back after death.

Yes, they can deal with the recursive ability by killing the stolen, but that should be hard for them to achieve. You should make it intensive. You can probably manage to have activation control, and so not have to activate Hamelin until you want to, preventing your opponent having multiple activations to kill him and his stolen. And if you have the activation control, then after you have lost the stolen you can activate Hamelin and get another one. And on his activation he can kill just about any 1 model as well as getting that new stolen.

I've not played with Hamelin, but I have used most of the masters in the game, and faced all of them so I have some idea of durability. I would love his defensive suite for any of the masters I do play. Yes it does look like his survival is pretty important to his crew (but not essential) so you ought to be prepared to dedicate models and stones and actions to protect him.

Its not uncommon for crews to dedicate 7 soulstone of Guardian to protecting their master if they think they are squishy. 2 Stolen is less than that, and you are still able to get more during the game.

If you are finding that when you do play him you are struggling with your reduced amount of Signifigant models, then pick more terror tots and Night terrors. They can always achieve objectives (if that is required).

I hope the advice is useful. Your posts are seeming very negative about something you haven't tried out. I can't remember any posts from people that have played him since the errata complaining about it, or saying that it is too hard for him to do anything.

(there may be some, but the vast majority are positive about his new rules and enjoy playing him.) This suggests that the combination of abilities on the table are still there and that its a case of the sum of the parts is still greater than the individual rules seem.

[Gruesome]

People who CLAIM to be regularly winning. ....

So, now people that have actually TRIED Hamelin post-errata are potentially liars...

Having to deal with stupid remarks and baseless conjecture

Pot, meet kettle.

Baseless conjecture like?:

I went out and purchased a slew of minis for the game which are now all shelved due to erratas making them no longer viable.

Do not expect to be able to say things about the game and others that are not true and go unscathed.

I would not want a different new player to come along and see you say the things you do and actually believe them.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Gruesome

[spectre923]

I wouldn't have minded so much truthfully if they had released more minions he could use in his crew to make up for all the stuff they took.Every other crew seems to get new toys.I bet even the floating head is ht2.

---------- Post added at 09:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:36 AM ----------

No one but me knows my thoughts and to claim otherwise is baseless conjecture.I was told by someone else how I was thinking which is not possible for anyone but me to know.I have a few young and mature nephilim that prove you wrong. They can't kill rats to grow anymore and you can't take them otherwise. I now also have more rats then I would ever take in a list because I need to spend points on objective grabbers which had I not already owned I would have to go out and purchase. I have a whole crews worth of mini's that will not see play.I am unscathed unless you don't know what unscathed means you can google it.Sticks and stones.Any person is potentially a liar in fact everyone lies.I would hate for any other new player to spend all the money I did for no reason.Now I'm being told I'm not allowed to be displeased about it.

[Lucidicide]

Played another game with Hamelin yesterday. We did Shared Reconnoiter, Hamelin v Yan Lo. It was my first time facing Yan Lo, which made for an interesting game of learning about it. I think I would have been fine had Izamu not been Immune to Influence, but he basically just gives a big middle finger to... well, everything in the game. I couldn't keep myself safe enough from him to have a Stolen get off Succumb. Oh well.

30 points:

Hamelin (3 stones) - Reconnoitter, Thwart, Bodyguard

Wretch

Nix

Rat Catcher

3x Terror Tots

2x Rats

Yan Lo (7 stones) - Reconnoiter, Kill Protege, Bodyguard

Soul Porter

Izamu

Chiaki

3x Canine Remains

Rotten Belle

I started the game off with a terrible hand, which made me sad. I started summon/sac on turns 1 and 2, plus the Wretch draw, and got garbage. He cheated a few times, and I got nothing out of it. I was extremely frustrated with my luck by the end of turn 3, having only gotten 1 severe in approximately 20 draws and still not flipping well. This led me to make bad decisions.

Nix went toward Yan Lo, knowing that most his crew had magic weapons and figuring that the on Yan would help, at least. Unfortunately, I didn't realize his magic weapon was ranged, so he didn't need to waste an AP moving. On the positive side, it took two activations (end of turn/initiative win) to take down Nix. On the negative side, Nix was dead on the top of turn 3, securing him Kill Protege and denying me Thwart. It was a dumb move to put Nix there overall, but it ended up not being that bad (tying up Yan's activations + expending his resources).

My terror tots went in all out "I'm significant!" mode. Since I didn't have a good hand, I kept Sprinting with them to try to get a good card on my discard in case my opponent cheated. I failed quite a number of Sprints, but I did get a few Tots around the back of his crew.

Other than the above, we basically met in the center of the board. I wanted Hamelin there to pass out significant and support. He wanted to kill me because he's a meany-head. I used the Rats + 1 Tot to kill the Remains, and I used a Piped Izamu to finish off Chiaki (she had taken a bit from Rats). At this point, my swarm was becoming rather large.

My Rat Catcher managed to paralyze Izamu. Yan resummoned Chiaki to try to clear the paralyzed, but I killed her with Rats before she had the chance (as they all activated at once and none of my Rats were Slow at that point.

Now we're at about turn 5, and in the center of the board is Hamelin, a Terror Tot, the Wretch, a Rat Catcher, and approximately 8 Rats. He has Yan Lo and Izamu. Hamelin is at 1 Wd with no Stolen (Yan had killed it, but then Black Jokered on a cardless, stoneless Hamelin). I won a big initiative with a 13 and sacced a few Rats to heal and draw cards, then got a Stolen up. And at the point he basically had no chance.

Rats took down Izamu with 2 Wds per attack (go go Blight). He Reposted a few and took them out forever, but I had so many I didn't care. Then the Rats surrounded Yan and killed him. By the end of the game, he had nothing on the table and I had won 6-2.

Can Hamelin win? Certainly. I got a little unlucky early, but was saved by a Black Joker later. I made a big mistake, and so did my opponent. I think if we were to play again, I would do much better against Yan, and I already did well enough.

The Tots easily paid for themselves in Reconnoiter since they are few fast, significant, and have enough defense/damage to defend themselves in strange corners of Malifaux. I think I'd prefer Alps in many strategies, but where I need to spread out significantly, the Tots were great.

Hope this helps.

[spectre923]

It absolutely helps.This is one of the match ups that I will be facing from both teams perspectives and addresses many of my concerns like immune to influence and undead models in general.Thank you!

[Nayte]

While Hamelin isn't the broken master he used to be, he's still one hell of a fight.

I haven't played as Hamelin, but I've face him roughly six or seven times since the changes, all with different masters. Hamelin's big drawback is not being able to draw cards; but honestly unless you're super unlucky(Looking at you Lucidicide), Hamelin is a great master. Getting a decent starting hand is almost a must(1-2 severe's, 2+ high moderates) and if you're going against a master that loves to cheat like Pandora or Kirai you should be in good shape.

I've learned to almost never cheat against him; and if I do I always, ALWAYS check my opponents top card on his discard pile. If it's below a 9, I cheat. Sure it feeds his hand; but I can remember what he's grabbed and what he hasn't. You take the risk of Hamelin being able to top-deck cards into his hand but still, if it's a duel you need to win it's worth the cheat.

[Lucidicide]

While Hamelin isn't the broken master he used to be, he's still one hell of a fight.

I haven't played as Hamelin, but I've face him roughly six or seven times since the changes, all with different masters. Hamelin's big drawback is not being able to draw cards; but honestly unless you're super unlucky(Looking at you Lucidicide), Hamelin is a great master. Getting a decent starting hand is almost a must(1-2 severe's, 2+ high moderates) and if you're going against a master that loves to cheat like Pandora or Kirai you should be in good shape.

I've learned to almost never cheat against him; and if I do I always, ALWAYS check my opponents top card on his discard pile. If it's below a 9, I cheat. Sure it feeds his hand; but I can remember what he's grabbed and what he hasn't. You take the risk of Hamelin being able to top-deck cards into his hand but still, if it's a duel you need to win it's worth the cheat.

Just as a point of reference, Nayte was my opponent in the battle report, and about half my games (maybe a bit more) with post-errata Hamelin.

[spectre923]

I wonder what slaughter would have looked like.Also out of curiosity what path/paths did yan lo take that is if he got any chi ? Also that made me just realize I should avoid giving negative flips to people when I'm low on cards. That might be why I ran dry last time I played.Another hurdle for me is "fate is meaningless" not being a zero anymore.I lose one whole guranteed cheatable attack a turn and I hate risking losing the two life.I have horrific luck as well which Is why I try so hard to mitigate it with strategy.

Edited February 1, 2013 by spectre923

[Lucidicide]

I wonder what slaughter would have looked like.Also out of curiosity what path/paths did yan lo take that is if he got any chi ?

Slaughter would have looked like me taking the Viks. I actually did win a Slaughter as Hamelin once, but it was against a newer player so that's hardly worth much (no offense, newbies!).

He went... the middle one 2 in (I think it's +1 Regen, +2 Defense?), and the bottom one two in (+damage on melee attack and something else?).

---------- Post added at 10:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 AM ----------

Also that made me just realize I should avoid giving negative flips to people when I'm low on cards. That might be why I ran dry last time I played.

Yeah, that can be a problem. It's why I like Harmless (can often create a cheat) and Alps.

Another hurdle for me is "fate is meaningless" not being a zero anymore.I lose one whole guranteed cheatable attack a turn and I hate risking losing the two life.I have horrific luck as well which Is why I try so hard to mitigate it with strategy.

I haven't made a melee attack with Hamelin in like 3 games. The number of resources consumed to hit for 9 is crazy. You are going to use at least 2 AP every time, a high card to hit, and a severe to cheat damage. You can't risk the weak. If Hamelin is sitting on those high cards, I'd argue his activation is better spent using their big model to do your bidding.

In my opinion, Hamelin is good in melee the same way Leveticus is -- if you find him in it, sweet, you'll kill something. But don't go searching it out.

[Setoth]

People who CLAIM to be regularly winning. Possibly to bait an inflammatory response. This is the internet after all. Why hop into a thread who's op you don't agree with unless it's to stir up an argument? It is easy for me to tell which posters offer solid advice now at least.Having to deal with stupid remarks and baseless conjecture about my thought processes (which only I am privy to anyways)is something I expected.The people who offered real advice with actual explanations attached without pointlessly attacking me have my thanks.I look forward to the guides/tacticas.

[spectre923]

Does levi handle slaughter well? I really don't like the other outcast crews at all and they use few if any of the same models.If I can tackle everything with hamelin and levi I will be fine.

Edited February 2, 2013 by spectre923

[Ausplosions]

I scored collegiate level reading comprehension at the age of six.I have paperwork to prove it. You just made more baseless statements about my thought processes AGAIN.You can actually simulate the game well enough if you pay close enough attention. It's literally all math.Not even decimals and any fractions are just rounded to whole numbers. Not every variable matters at any given point anyway so you can boil a lot of them down to save time.You can even keep notes if you have trouble with that part.You can do it in a card game and with a strategy game.This is both.I can simulate more of the game than your statements would suggest by quite a bit.Any person willing to think about it can.Not saying every person should, but they can if they so chose.

I'm an astronaut.

[Setoth]

I'm an astronaut.

Now I have Babylon Zoo's "Space Man" running through my head.

[spectre923]

You could be. Redbull sends people to space now.Also they used chimps so that's not qualifying yourself much.

[Ausplosions]

You could be. Redbull sends people to space now.Also they used chimps so that's not qualifying yourself much.

[spectre923]

Put a hot needle through your eye. You've never done it so how can you know if it hurts or not ? AMIRITE?

[Ausplosions]

Put a hot needle through your eye. You've never done it so how can you know if it hurts or not ? AMIRITE?

Edited February 2, 2013 by Ausplosions

[spectre923]

Now that we are back on topic I plan on using him as soon as possible. Hopefully tonight.I'm really not crying out about anything.I was told I was lying about having to shelve models with him which I was not.There are things you can no longer take with him and reasonably expect to see play.I never stated I wasn't going to use him ever again.I want him to be playable. He is my favorite master but I don't throw games because of "rule of cool"unless I am trying intentionally to make people laugh.