LoS on Elevated Ground

[Evilbleachman]

I was playing a game the other day and we came up to a situation, which kind of sparked a debate on LoS rulings.

To the left you have my opponent's Young Lacroix, which is elevated on a Ht 2 Terrain piece, thus making him technically a Ht 3 model, when determining LoS.

To the right, you have at an elevated Ht of 0 my Pandora and immediately behind her a Sorrow. Both are Ht 2 models.

The dispute went along the lines of me arguing that he cannot target my Sorrow, because my same Ht sized model is blocking the LoS.

Her argued that since he was elevated much higher he could target the model behind my model instead.

I can understand this, if the model had actually been further away from the other one. In this case two same height models would technically block the LoS to the other one. Especially from that distance.

What do you guys think? What is the solution?

We solved the case by letting him shoot on my Sorrow.

[merlinman]

ya ive had the same question for awhile related to Zorida and creating a voodoo doll on a model in her LoS. So naturally my opponent puts her on something like a height 5+ building or terrain and claims to see the entire board as everything else might be at max height 2 or 3.

[Evilbleachman]

Alone by that, you could say a height 3 model could target any model that is not directly behind a wall and blocked by anything with a height of three.

[SteamHammer]

You could always have a house rule that models cast shadows like scenery. So the trailing model would need to be over 2 inches away from the blocking ht 2 model. It doesn't take into account any difference between the targeting model being on a height 3 or 5 elavation but that might make things too confusing.

[Evilbleachman]

My suggestion was that if he was standing at the edge of the terrain piece and directly looking down on the models, he target both of them. Otherwise I said it would work like you said that there has to be a certain distance between the models to be able to target a model that is technically blocked by another model.

If the model was a few millimeters further to 'Dora's side, it wouldn't have mattered. But I placed them exactly that way with intent that only Pandora could be targeted.

[bcaswell]

Well it might be a bit wierd but the rules are quite simple on this situation(maybe even too simple). Hight 3 model can see over hight 2, so that's as far as it needs too be thought about really. One of my group hates the simplicity of the Los rules but unlesss you want too house rule it that's it as far as I know old bud.

Edited January 9, 2013 by bcaswell
Another thought

[Evilbleachman]

That is probably the right answer. Usually often the simplest of things is the answer to everything. It still bugs me to heck, because my brain just cannot think that simple. Imagining a Ht 3 model shooting at a Hit 2 model that is behind another Ht 2 model and let's say 12" away, doesn't make sense. Especially since LoS is determined by drawing a line from base to base.

[bcaswell]

As far a zoraider on a hight 5 goes elevated terrain such as buildings eg ht 3 cottage still cast a shadow regardless of how high above it the hag chooses too stand. So there would be hiding places within the shadows of any buildings.

[Evilbleachman]

Buildings are blockable terrain. Blockable concerning LoS. Figures are as well. Thus, the ruling pertaining to the shadow would have to apply to models as well. No?

[merlinman]

the building might cast a shadow but i never saw anything in rule book about it.

Unless you are talking about a house rule which we have started playing with about heights and how much cover is availabile for LoS

[Evilbleachman]

There is a kind of shadow based rule. When a model is standing next to a terrain piece that is not sloped, it is in a kind of shadow and thus the attacking model cannot declare it as a target. If I had the book on me right now I could tell you which page.

[Darios]

Page 16&17 in the rules manual are all about "the Shadow" *g*

[Evilbleachman]

Thanks! Wouldn't that apply to anything that is blockable to LoS? Including models?

[bcaswell]

No the rules for terrain/shadow only applied to elevated terrain. While yes the both have the blocking trait only elevated terrain casts a shadow. Something to bare in mind that although mini's have the block I g trait they don' provide cover saves either. Hope this helps.

[Evilbleachman]

In this case it was elevated terrain in a slope. XD

The issue isn't about cover, it is more about LoS. I guess we will never know for sure. Might as well just keep it simple. Maybe someone from Wyrd knows more or maybe not.

[bcaswell]

It is the case that the way malifaux handles Los does differ from most other games, this does lead too situations that seem rather silly. However I just try too forget previous experience and start with a blank slate. On the upside the simple way the handle Los does cut out all the true line of site chuff and the disparity in models size when it comes too Los.

There are other threads that also cover this issue which have had Marshall input they may provide clarity on the issue for you good luck

[TheUnseemlyOne]

There is a distinction between flat elevations and sloped elevations. Flat cast a shadow while sloped ones do not. Anyway, I'm not sure I'm really adding anything new to the discussion, but by the letter of the rules a model that is ht 3 can see a model that is ht 2 even if there is another ht 2 model in front of of it. The only thing that would really prevent the ht 2 model from being seen is generally going to be something else that is at least ht 3.

[Space Donkey]

Elusive has it. If the attacker or defender is greater than the height of everything between them then LOS is established. One area that I'm not 100% on would be one like the quick picture I made below. Zoraida is standing on a HT 5 building (HT 7 total) trying to see an Executioner (HT 2?) on the other side of a HT 5 building. Going by the basic LOS rules she would have it, but then it gets complicated with the slopes & shadows. I don't have my RM on me here at work, but if I'm remembering correctly the sloped roof of the building she is standing on allows her to ignore shadow. Hopefully this isn't a loophole that slipped under the radar because that makes even less sense than shooting through models.

(go MS paint magic)

[TheUnseemlyOne]

I'm not entirely certain I understand the situation. Is "sloped top building" refering to the terrain being a sloped elevation?

From my understanding this can play out in two ways. The first is the Executioner is hiding behind a sloped elevation and can therefor be seen by Zoraida because she is taller than said piece of terrain.

The second has the Executioner hiding behind a flat elevation. My intuitive reaction to this was to say, no the Executioner can't be seen, but re reading the rules for elevations, it appears that he technically can be seen by Zoraida. This is basically because the rules for shadows are written to apply to models using the same piece of terrain. So while by the letter of the rules, I think the Executioner could be seen, but I likely wouldn't play it that way adn think this would be a prime example of something that could go in the FAQ.

[Rhonlore]

Since there is already an open thread about LOS...

Izamu moved twice to get into this position, he is adjacent to the wall that Von Schill is standing on.

The wall is approx 4 inches, and I argued 1" = 1ht for this purpose.

The question is: Would Izamu be able to poke Von Schill.

Izamu is a Ht 3 model with a Rg 3 Melee strike

Von Schill is a Ht 2 model

Because the wall cast it's shadow, we agreed he would not be able to shoot Izamu, or anyone else within 4 inches of the wall.

2nd question.

Same scenario, but replace Izamu with Molly and is attempting to cast a Range 3 spell. Can she do it?

Edit: I found the answer to my own question, because I opened the rulebook and... well yaknow. Read.

Elevation Example:

A model with a melee weapon (Rg 2) on a Ht 2 flast elevation can only reach a Ht 2 target up to 2" away if the model was standing on the edge of the flat elevation. That same model could reach a Ht 1 model if it was within 1" of the elevation.

A Ht 2 model standing at the bottom of that same elevation with Rg 2 weapon could reach up to 2" across the elevation if it was in base contract with the bottom. However, if the flat elevation was Ht 3 and its intended target stood 2" back atop the elevation it would not be able to reach (elevation's Ht 3 - model's Ht 2 = +1 to the distance).

Edit2: oooh.. more rules. I hate rules. They are plentiful

I couldn't have attacked becaaaause... "A model below a flat elevation cannot draw LoS to a target on that flat elevation while the model is completely within the elevation's shadow, unless the Ht of the model is greater than that of the elevation.

At least I understand now. Thanks for listening internet.

Edit3: Can't cast the spell because.... "Spells require LoS to their targets unless otherwise indicated in their description..."

Edit4: Space Donkey, Zoraida can't draw line of sight because the Executioner isn't on the roof with her. He is still in the shadow of the elevation. That would be my understanding.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Rhonlore

[Evilbleachman]

The issue in this thread isn't concerning LoS to a model on sloped or non sloped terrain, but more LoS to a model standing behind another model with the same height. Why would a piece of terrain be blockable to LoS in that manner, but another model not?

Wouldn't you draw the line past the Ht 2 of the model in front of the other? This would naturally leave a trail behind it until it hits the table a couple inches away. Which would technically count for a shadow.

I will probably toss in a house rule making it so that models throw shadows as well, concerning LoS from elevated places.

[Rhonlore]

Pg15:

"Blocking Trait

...[did a bit of rearranging]

- All non-Spirit models have the blocking trait, but do not provide cover.

- If the intervening base has the blocking trait and its Ht is less than the model's or the target's Ht, or at least one line drawn by the model does not cross the intervening base, then the model has partial LoS to the target."...

More from pg15:

"Determining LoS

If one or more, but not all, straight lines drawn from the model to the to the target cross an intervening item, the the model's LoS will be obstructed. The model can see it's target but the target will receive cover..."

That seems to be the only stipulation for partial line of sight.

I have been unable to find where elevation matters in shooting. (Edit: Nevermind, found it. pg 16.)

If the Young Lacroix would be able to make one line from his base to your Sorrows base, I would say he should be able to shoot with no penalty. Conversely, if no line could be drawn without hitting an intervening models base, no shooty shooty.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Rhonlore

[Evilbleachman]

That is exactly what I would say as well. But the argument is that he counts as height 3 from that elevation and is thus taller.

On the blocking trait one could argue with 'either/or'. Since it says 'less than the model's or the target's Ht'. One could argue that the blocking model's Ht is lower than the 'model's' height, which in this case would be the acting model. That is what our issue was. xD

[Space Donkey]

To clarify my earlier example. By "sloped top building" I meant something like a house with a standard pitched roof. The edge of the roof is flush with the top of the wall and slopes up and towards the center of the building at say a 30 degree angle until it reaches the mid-line of the building at which point it slopes downward at the same 30 degree angle until it reaches the top of the opposite wall.

By the way the rules for sloped terrain it worded, Zoraida would definitely be able to see the Executioner even though it defies all logic. I wouldn't play it like that since I think it is very abusive and would very quickly turn a game against Zoraida into a negative play experience for the opponent.

If you wanted to take it to the extreme, a Ht 2 model on a Ht 3 ramp could draw LoS to any model on the table except for those blocked by flat elevations or with special rules interfering with LoS. To me that just sounds ridiculous and should be errata'd. I don't think there should be any way in which a combined Ht 5 model can target a model behind a Ht 10 building that just happens to not have a flat roof.

[poulpox]

Hello!

Yes Lacroix can shoot at the sorrow because he is a virtual Ht3 which is higher than the Ht 2 obstacle (Pandora); as mentioned in the thread, models do not have a shadow, so being right behind a model doesn't have any influence on the LoS. The only thing which could have stopped the gremlin from seeing the sorrow is another Ht 3 blocking model/terrain in the way.

EDIT: furthermore the sorrow doesn't get any cover as models do not provide cover. It's dangerous to allow gremlins on hills and rooftops!

Edited January 10, 2013 by poulpox

[Evilbleachman]

I have to agree with Donks. It is kind of a whacky rule that could use a little tweaking. It is abusive in a way. All I can really do is suggest a home rule against such a style, since it doesn't make sense. I would only change that a model casts a shadow as well as a building and any base completely within the shadow is 'untouchable' as such. At least those with the blockable feature.