Nic mindless Zombies and blasts, zombie fodder

[greg1394]

This came up in a game..

Nic is in base combat with 4 mindless zombies in, more or less a square.

one of the zombies is the initial target for a blast from rasputina .

The spell gose off and every one is caught by 2 blasts.

Can nic use zombie fodder BEFORE the damage , which will kill the mindless zombies, is put on to the mindless zombies ?

Which wounds are alocated first ?

Who Decides which wounds are alocated first ?

Hope this is clear enough !

Cheers !

[Q'iq'el]

Nico's ability allows him to use the Mindless Zombie to cancel an attack hitting him directly.

I'd say you cannot use it at all if Nicodem is hit by the blast, because the attack isn't against him, but if the attack is against him, the blast won't be generated if he decides to sacrifice a Zombie (as he does it before the damage flip, after the hit has been determined).

[egoon]

Zombie Fodder: When this model is hit by an attack, sacrifice a Mindless Zombie within 2” to cancel the hit.

It doesn't say that the attack has to target him directly. When I read it I figured it could be used to cancel hits from blasts and pulses as well. I may be wrong though...

[Ausplosions]

Zombie Fodder: When this model is hit by an attack, sacrifice a Mindless Zombie within 2” to cancel the hit.

He is not hit by an attack.

He is hit by a blast. You can't sac in this case.

[Q'iq'el]

Zombie Fodder: When this model is hit by an attack, sacrifice a Mindless Zombie within 2” to cancel the hit.

It doesn't say that the attack has to target him directly. When I read it I figured it could be used to cancel hits from blasts and pulses as well. I may be wrong though...

I think it does say it, it is simply an old model and the wording is poor.

The way I understand being hit by an attack happens when you are hit directly. Being hit by a blast is not the same thing.

For one there are abilities like bulletproof, which have been ruled not to kick in when the model is hit by a blast caused by a ranged weapon. This is very far removed example, but it shows how ability kicking in from ranged attack does not kick in from the blast caused by a ranged attack.

Secondly, think about the complication. With normal attack sequence there is precise spot when Nicodem cancels the entire attack - it happens after the Duel's TN has been established. Being Nicodem player you can cheat, you can use SS or you can decide to skip these altogether, and after losing the duel you still get to cancel it. A really powerful ability, because if you want you can lure your opponent into using SS only to cancel his attacks. Obviously experienced opponents won't SS the attacks when there are MZ around, but that is just as good a protective measure, isn't it?

But when does this fit in when the blast hits?

Perhaps I have it wrong. I simply assumed being hit by blasts is not the same thing as being hit by attacks. Perhaps we have two different sequences here, depending on the way Nicodem gets hit.

[greg1394]

He is not hit by an attack.

He is hit by a blast. You can't sac in this case.

He is Hit with an attack, if he wasnt he wouldnt take wounds.

What he isnt is targeted by the attack.

---------- Post added at 04:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:10 PM ----------

With normal attack sequence there is precise spot when Nicodem cancels the entire attack - it happens after the Duel's TN has been established.

Is it ?? We have always played that as soon as the attack is a hit ( TN reached ) that neco can opt to "zomibe fodder " !

Thanks for Keeping my right !

[nilus]

He is Hit with an attack, if he wasnt he wouldnt take wounds.

What he isnt is targeted by the attack.

Well he is hit with an effect generated by an attack, but not directly by an attack.

My call would be that he can't sac a Zombie to cancel the blast damage. Its only when he is directly targeted and hit with a strike action

[Mydnight]

Since Nicodem isn't targetted by the attack he can't trigger Zombie Fodder. In much the same way that if you catch Pandora in a blast you don't have to make a WP duel. It's a good way to affect a master that can be difficult to attack directly.

[Gruesome]

I don't think the targeting of it comes into play by the wording of zombie fodder, so discussing targeting may just confuse the issue.

I do not think that "blast damage" is the same as "attack damage", so I also do not think that he can use zombie fodder and have played it that way for a while. (As much as I would LIKE it to)

[Boscotopia]

Nico was not hit by the attack. The attack was flipped (hit) and then damage was flipped(dmg + ). Now, Nico knows he is in the path of the blast ...... too late, Nico. Zombie Fodder states "When this model is hit by an attack, sacrifice...."

A) you are trying to sacrifice after the damage flip, which is too late.

Blasts do not match the definition of Attack per page 18 of the rule manual. Blasts are not attacks, spells, nor actions.

Sorry, Raspy is just awesome.

[Therril_83]

A) you are trying to sacrifice after the damage flip, which is too late.

Blasts do not match the definition of Attack per page 18 of the rule manual. Blasts are not attacks, spells, nor actions.

This is what I think too. You sac a zombie as a reaction to "you lost the attack duel", doing it at any other time feels wrong.

And as Boscotopia states, Blasts aren't attacks, spells or actions. They are simply a resultant of flipping for damage, so you could perhaps say that Nico is hit by a damageflip, but not that he is hit by an attack.

[egoon]

How about pulses then? You make individual resists before applying the effect.

And pulses without resist... are they even attacks?

[Gruesome]

How about pulses then? You make individual resists before applying the effect.

And pulses without resist... are they even attacks?

In looking at the exact definitions of "Attack", some could be.

For pulses with resist, the "Attack type" that is applicable is:

"Spells that require a resist duel"

More difficult to discern is for pulses without a resist, there is a more generic entry for attack type that simply says:

"Actions that inflict Dg or Wd on another model, or require an opposed duel"

There is actually a rather interesting line that brings up what the definition of "affected" is regarding the whole original "Blast" discussion, IMO.

What do others think?:

"The defender of an attack is either the direct target when a target is required, or any models potentially affected by the attack"

For me, that clears up any debate about pulses, but blasts are a bit cloudier again than I thought they were.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Gruesome

[egoon]

What about pulses that aren't spells or even actions? Like Immolating Demise, Shatter, "KA-BLOOEY!" or BOOM!

[Boscotopia]

What about pulses that aren't spells or even actions? Like Immolating Demise, Shatter, "KA-BLOOEY!" or BOOM!

Different situations, different topics for a different post.