How does Kirai deal with Pandora

[Veskit]

I've got a buddy around my parts who takes pandora quite often. He's since migrated to this list that I just find next to impossible to deal with:

Pandora

Coppilis

Lelu

Lelutu

2x Stitched together

And for the most part it is the stitched and pandora I have issues with. The stitched drain my hand and pandora comes in with crows and SS making any threats run away.

Suggestions on what i can take/do to deal with pandora?

[Ratty]

Don't let Pandora see you if you can help it. pick off parts of her crew and then hide. Also consider Hanged, Hanged are amazing against Pandora due to Wp7, one Wp when they hit Pandora.

[Veskit]

I can understand how the Wp7 helps and the if I can manage it on her, but doesn't that just amplify the issue of a high :crows and soulstone for the auto fall back trigger?

I am correct in that Pandora can make models fall back with this even if they're immune to Morale duels?

[CrazyCarl]

That's a Ca trigger, not Wp, so, no.

[Veskit]

So Pandora cannot make models that are immune to morale duels fall back? I was in the understanding since it makes a model fall back as if it had failed a morale duel, but not been a morale duel itself that it made models fall back anyways, even if they were immune. If I was incorrect on that, then Pandora is a relatively easy master for Rezzers to deal with. So what's correct?

[Ratty]

What it does is effectively shut down her Incite/Pacify movement. If she can't win Wp->Wp duels she can't get the extra 4" move. This will allow you to entirely ignore her deal with the objectives.

I have before now even run both the hanged and Jack, Entirely so I could stop her defending against being hit by the hanged. But hey, even if you don't manage to jump her with it, she can't risk the Hanged getting the strike on her. This puts her hugely on the back foot, she can't really risk playing offensively until the Hanged is dealt with.

Also note with Jack he is more or less immune to damage from Pandora, all the damage she does is direct Wd from a non-magical source. She would have to focus bash him to even have a chance of killing him, Though her crew might be able to (though if she has a crew that focuses on buffing her, the chances will be really limited).

---------- Post added at 05:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:57 PM ----------

So Pandora cannot make models that are immune to morale duels fall back? I was in the understanding since it makes a model fall back as if it had failed a morale duel, but not been a morale duel itself that it made models fall back anyways, even if they were immune. If I was incorrect on that, then Pandora is a relatively easy master for Rezzers to deal with. So what's correct?

Nope she can make them Fall Back, Being immune to Morale Duels doesn't specifically make you immune to falling back. And the duel that she triggers off is not a Morale Duel.

The other thing to try and do is drain her soulstone pool.. Cheat high when she starts an incite/pacify chain can force her to dump high cards or Soulstones, and this is good she's much less scary once she has 0 pool left.

---------- Post added at 05:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:00 PM ----------

I can understand how the Wp7 helps and the if I can manage it on her, but doesn't that just amplify the issue of a high and soulstone for the auto fall back trigger?

Your playing Kirai you should control when the Hanged makes it move. If your playing Kirai right you should out activate Pandora. So you can keep the Hanged out of sight in a building and then Swirl it into combat with her after she has finished activating. Note this also will give you more chances to hit her, than running the Hanged in.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Ratty

[Fetid Strumpet]

Being immune to Morale duels will not protect you from Pandora's trigger. You never actually take a Morale duel. You make a Resist duel vs her spell using your WP and if she uses her trigger you count as having failed a morale duel, without ever taking one. Being immune to Morale duelsdoes not protect you from having counted as failing one.

Additionally, if you are within 12" of Pandora, you lose any immunity to Morale duels you might posses, because of her The Box Opens. That ability strips any immunity to WP duels you might posses. All morale duels are WP duels, as the oft used saying states:

"All Morale Duels are WP duels. Not every WP duel is a Morale Duel."

That being the case, even if her trigger made the duel count in its entirety as a morale duel, and you had a trait that made you immune to morale duels, such as construct or undead, you'd still have to take the duel as The Box Opens would make you susceptible to them.

On topic, in order to beat Pandora the game really becomes an exercise in tactical positioning. In the best scenario for you it is going to very much feel like a game of chess, as every model you possess has to be carefully positioned. Firstly two things to remember, a good Pandora player is going to single out your Seishin very rapidly, and that Kirai's Pitiful trait makes her a very attractive target for Pandora to pick on.

You need to carefully consider how to place your spirits to prevent Pandora from being able to utilize her Fading memory and Chained incite/pacify to get into range of your models. If possible you want to figure out where exactly you want Pandora to end up at the end of her chain, and position your models so that if she wants to make a strike she will end up in the general vicinity of your particular strike area.

Another thing to consider is that, at least the way I play Pandora, my hand is almost always geared towards Pandora's use. She is very easy to kill if she runs out of the ability cheat or use SS on her defensive WP flips, so I tend to hoard cards for her alone, so if you can stay away from her you can take advantage of that fact by keeping a very close eye on her hand,if it ever goes low, that is the time to strike her to, if nothing else, force her to burn her SS away, and even one or two solid hits can critically wound her, as if you can get past the WP duel she is even easier to injure than a rotten belle.

You can force the issue with your major strength of out activating her, by forcing her to go first, or by utilizing your superior crew mobility, to put pressure on any other important aspects of her crew before dealing with her, in the effort to burn cards from the hand.

In general also protect your Seishin, Pandora can kill them very easily, and a smart Pandora player is going to give your Seishin a great deal of attention. Keep them separated, spread out, and out of LoS.

I hope some of that helps.

[Veskit]

From this I"m guessing from the talk here the main difficulty is the current setup of our table. There is very little LoS blocking stuff, and since the spells are not cover doesn't help at all..... it pretty much gives Pandy free reign on our boards... and without being able to run and hide setting up her chains so that she can cut every model on the board is hard to prevent.

It's funny since the times I've beaten Pandy it's because of having heavily forested boards giving my spirits places to hide and lash out of to hit his crew where it hurts then fall back into cover.

But I can't expect that every time I play her, how do you deal with her in situations of little cover? Especially when he's using Lelutu to lure Pandy into positions so that she doesn't have to waste activations walking?

(He lures with Lelutu so that he gets a melee strike against her then makes sure to fail the WP->WP duel so that he can get another push on top of the 3" Wk)

[Ratty]

TBH, Malifaux should be played on terrain with a mixture of blocking, obscuring, low level stuff etc, and it should always be very dense compared to 40k or Warmahorde. You will always have trouble Kirai vs Pandora if there is not enough scenery, as the game isn't really balanced for it. It's similar to when people complain about Perdita being overpowered, it is almost always due to lack of scenery.

[Stryder]

Another thing to consider is that, at least the way I play Pandora, my hand is almost always geared towards Pandora's use. She is very easy to kill if she runs out of the ability cheat or use SS on her defensive WP flips, so I tend to hoard cards for her alone

This is what Jack Daw is for.