Problems playing Colette Vs Sonnia Criid

[Aramoro]

Myself and my friends have been play a bit of Malifaux now, playing at the 25 SS values as we're learning really. The main problem I have is Sonnia wiping my crew out to a showgirl by the end of the encounter. If we flip a Strategy like Deliver a Message then I can do that with Cassandra but then she's dead, and if he's got a Kill Protege it's easy points. In general he's rocking a couple of the Ortegas, 2 Witchlings and Sonnia so he can kill anyone in my crew in 2 hits basically. Last game I took a Corphyee to see how they did but but one shotted by a Witchling Stalker's rune blade.

I could try not going near any of them but that makes it very very hard to complete he VP's Against the Ressers and Aracanists I have enough tricks to do some stuff but against Sonnia I'm really struggling. I was thinking about maybe taking Johan Renegade Steamfitter to help punch people to death and deflect attention from my fragile showgirls.

Anyone got any tips to help in this matchup?

[Ozz]

One Coryphee is no good, you want 2 for the Duet or none. 2 you want to make sure the board has some terrain that you can not see through, a decent size forest, or buildings of some sort, and then he must spread out his damage to keep you from being hidden, which then limits the damage he can put on a model. Just stay hidden as best you can, and do a little damage to whatever comes close and hide again, and do your objectives.

As for Kill protege, i always find Cassandra dies, and so it for me is generally 2 points for them as well, so you just need to ether burn more stones for her, or make sure you get both of yours and not worry about her dying imo.

[sharpobjects]

You need to get models in melee with Sonia as soon as possible to mitigate her blast spell. I dont know what your board looks like but if you move Cassandra and 2-3 doves up the board and get them in melee with her she is going to be in trouble.

Obviously you need to utilize cover moving up on turn 1 since only range attacks/spells can affect Cassandra on turn 1 and 2. The Dove's using magic extension magicians duel is very powerful against a master. This will also force your opponent to discard cards to nullify the spell.

After you strike Sonia on Turn 2 in melee you will be able to swap her out with collette provided you moved up to within 18 inches. Then its magicians duel all over again.

Keep making doves and keep throwing them at her. The 3rd and final pin in the coffin is if you can get a performer in melee with her by swapping within 18 inches. The performers irresistable will continue to either draw cards from your opponents hand or waste good cards off the deck to pass the check for each action.

No offense to Sonia Crid, I like her a lot but a Collette crew used properly should not be having too much trouble.

[Ozz]

The problem with being in mele with Sonia is her aura, and she can do some damage in mele, nothing special, but still stings a bit, but if she gets the aura up, thats 3 damage to all close to her, so doves die every turn, so you just need to be aware that the models you leave in mele are best thought of as sacrificial rather than something to keep her stuck all game.

[Gollum528]

Sabotage is almost a free 2 vps with Collette if there's enough terrain. That should level out the kill protege advantage.

[Shadai]

Sonia is a tough matchup for Colette and I have felt the sting of this one before.

Depending on what the Sonia player is bringing, you need to figure out how to get the most points as possible and understand you are probably not going to win the game. Sonia is the guilds anti-arcanist member, and is pretty much a losing match-up for any arcanist master outside of say Marcus (who doesn't rely on spellcasting that much). You will find it is those anti-magic auras that will mess you up the worst.

I've has some success playing keep away. If you have a good strat like reconnoiter or deliver the message you can just move around her and pick off models that she leaves exposed trying to get to you. If you have a more interactive strat like Slaughter, well, you probably should have re-flipped. Middle of the road strats that require some interaction like Supply Cart and others you'll just have to do the best you can. Because you usually won't know if your opponent is playing Sonia at the time of Strat flipping, you can handle it one of two ways:

1. Assume if he announces he's playing the guild that Sonia is going to hit the board faster then you can say "Arcanists" and flip or re-flip Strats accordingly.

2. If number 1 doesn't get you a favorable match (as Slaughter on reflip is a painful loss of soulstone AND annoying), then you are down to picking well on Schemes.

Remember, you are probably not going to win that matchup, especially if you have Slaughter or the King of the Hill Strat I can't remember the name of. So getting as many points as possible is the most important thing you can do. When playing a vigorous game of keep-away, I prefer Sabotage and Arcane Ritual, since both are really easy to complete in a move heavy Colette squad and have the added bonus of keeping you away from those Auras.

Try and isolate a few of his models and take them out quietly. You don't have the strength to confront Sonia and her crew directly. And who knows, if you get your 4 points from Schemes, maybe you can prevent his schemes and strats enough to actually pull off the win.

[Aramoro]

Sabotage is a nice easy one which is always good.

What I don't understand is how you're getting to Sonnia without a Witchling destroying your stupid face with his Rune Blade. I Witching need a 7 to pass the test to shank a Performer, Severe kills you outright Moderate kills you if they flip a :rams, best case scenario is they do weak damage and only half kill you. I mean if a Witchling cheats in for Severe damage on Colette you're burning Soul stones to stay alive.

That's what I don't understand really. I can't single out a model and beat it down as i'll just get counter charged by Witchings and killed.

[Gollum528]

The coryphee duet is your best weapon. Between it's ridiculous mobility, high defense, positive flips on everything, healing flips,and use soul stone it is your best solution to Sonnia. It can easily avoid the witchling stalkers and make Sonnia burn her stones by getting in her face and leaving (if it wants to). In addition, Cassandra has a 1 action to push into base contact with it, that with nimble and sword dance/southern charm, and use soulstone you'll have to formidable opponents in Sonnia's face quicklly. If that is not enough, you can use Colette to get them out of trouble with illusionist and a linked manequin or have her also get in Sonnia's face and attack, reactivate, attack again, and then get to safety.

[Barnaberible]

Yeah love duets but in a 25 ss they are quite a chunk of the crew at 14 for a pair, takes it up to 23 with cassandra, they can also be a bit of a glass cannon if your not carefull.

My opinion would be to focus on your schemes, take sabotage for sure, i normally take bodyguard with collette and announce it which tends to make her a target but with the flipping out can normally get away, use the manequins to swap with and use the doves to harrass. deff use a ss to re flip any useless strategies like assassinate and just try to stay away from as much as possible and frustrate you opponent to try and get him to drop vps.

I would reccommend Johan for 5ss he's great, also consider trying Kaeris in place of cassandra for certain strategies.

[Shadai]

What I don't understand is how you're getting to Sonnia without a Witchling destroying your stupid face with his Rune Blade. I Witching need a 7 to pass the test to shank a Performer, Severe kills you outright Moderate kills you if they flip a :rams, best case scenario is they do weak damage and only half kill you. I mean if a Witchling cheats in for Severe damage on Colette you're burning Soul stones to stay alive.

That's what I don't understand really. I can't single out a model and beat it down as i'll just get counter charged by Witchings and killed.

It sounds like (and please don't take this the wrong way) you are doing it wrong then.

Colette is not designed to go toe to toe with anyone. A properly played Colette army will make you feel like you can go toe to toe with anyone, but the reality is nine times out of ten it simply isn't true. A proper showgirls crew is more of a hit and run type of crew, with the Duet as your queen.

As far as "getting to Sonia" as you are referring to.... if you mean for deliver the message you can easily do this with the Duet. 9" in, deliver, 9" out. If you are somehow still in range and you get charged, the Duet has the beefy defenses to live a round before you play swap game with Colette and a mannequin with the Duet, whisking the Duet out of reach and leaving a worthless mannequin (or even better, if that mannequin is linked to Colette, nothing but air).

But in terms of pure "destruction" power, a typical all Showgirl crew doesn't have the damage or staying power to go toe-to-toe with anyone. They are short on wounds and damage, and are typically out-activated especially if you have the Duet. This is why you have to pick your battles carefully. You can't be the aggressor, but you can't play passive defense the entire time either. It is a delicate balance that is all about the stage show, fitting for the crew that calls themselves "Showgirls".

If for some terrible reason you have to stand toe-to-toe with someone like Sonia, you best go in prepared, and that starts with crew selection. A standard "all" Showgirls army is not going to fare well. Again, you don't have the wounds, damage, and you rely way too heavily on spells. Instead you need to sub in some non-girls figures to make up the beef difference. My suggestions would be Karis and a gunsmith or two, since range is god-like when going up against a field of witchlings. If you need more of a melee presence, then Johan is not only cheap, but has really good synergy with Colette; Not to mention a vicious 3" melee range that takes up a large amount of board control considering you can deliver him anywhere you want with Disappearing Act. He might not last long against a bunch of witchlings, but I almost guarantee that if Colette is nearby to boost his AT he will take a few of those bastards with him.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Shadai

[Aramoro]

Deliver the Message is a (2) action so getting in and doing it is easy enough with Cassandra or a Duet. My usual Schemes are Power Ritual and Sabotage which are usually easy enough to complete. But flipping any strategy which requires me to be near his models usually ends up unpleasantly for me.

I only mentioned going toe to toe with Sonnia because someone mentioned it further up. I usually don't try to go near them at all if I can avoid it. What I'm struggling with is avoiding it. My opponent forms a line across the table and just double moves towards me as fast as possible. So I get kinda corralled into a corner. I know I'm clearly doing something wrong, what that is I'm not sure though. Duet does seem to be the key though as they can skip though the line and give me more movement.

[Shadai]

Deliver the Message is a (2) action so getting in and doing it is easy enough with Cassandra or a Duet. My usual Schemes are Power Ritual and Sabotage which are usually easy enough to complete. But flipping any strategy which requires me to be near his models usually ends up unpleasantly for me.

I only mentioned going toe to toe with Sonnia because someone mentioned it further up. I usually don't try to go near them at all if I can avoid it. What I'm struggling with is avoiding it. My opponent forms a line across the table and just double moves towards me as fast as possible. So I get kinda corralled into a corner. I know I'm clearly doing something wrong, what that is I'm not sure though. Duet does seem to be the key though as they can skip though the line and give me more movement.

Oops, my bad. For some reason I was thinking it was a 2 action for just the shared strat and the individual strat was just 1. It's what I get for not having my rulebook handy when typing.

Yeah in that case, remember the Duet can push through the line without any problems. I would in that instance try for figure on the end of the line to go through, sword dance the duet, move to him, hit him, announce move again, which gives you a free strike, then move to edge of melee range on the other side of him, then with third and final AP, move again, getting the free strike in first. If three attacks don't kill at least one of those guys, either you flipped bad or he flipped good. No worries, move him 9 + melee away (so usually about 10") at this point. With Cassie, you can do the move - sword dance trick too, or you can just dance partner to the duet which should put you safely on the other side of the line. If he's dumb enough to charge with the only one that is close, then no worries, end his sorry existence the next turn then keep moving.

[Aramoro]

Ah I think you're right, we were playing Shared Deliver a Message, I had assumed the normal one was the same. I'm a stupid newbie.

[Barnaberible]

I reccommend reading the pull my finger wiki tactica, it will give you some good tips. To be honest the showgirls are a pretty difficult crew to learn with especially if your new to the game.

I found when first playing malifaux that I couldnt resist getting stuck into the opponent, which was fine cos I started with McMourning, but you probably need to learn to concentrate on your objectives. The showgirls almost guarantee you 4vp with your schemes then its just a case of either concentrating on your strategy or concentrating on denying your opponent VP's.

The showgirls are fast and tricky, not particualrily hard hitting but if someones putting a line straight toward you you should quite easily be able to either outflank them or single out a model and punch a hole straight through it.

My tips in general would be, never get into a stand up fight and use your mobility to your advantage. If your looking to expand your crew get the Kaeris box set, Kaeris is pretty handy herself and the gunsmiths will give you some ranged options which will help against crews like Sonja.

As for kill protige cancelling out deliver the message, if your opponent choses this scheme simply dont deliver the message with cassandra, collette is quite capable of delivering the message herself with her reactive, just always keep a card in your hand so you can use her slow to die action to get her out if in trouble.

All in all i would persevere with the crew, its a great fun crew and when you get the hang of it your opponenet will be going 'wtf is going on here' but just remember its not a typical wargame crew that either sits there and shoots or steams in an hits.

[Argentbadger]

I am the Guild player here. It appears that I’m late to the party.

For clarity, my crew was Sonnia Criid, two Witchling Stalkers, Santiago Ortega and Niño Ortega. I’ve never taken either of these Ortegas before, so they’re in the crew for experimental purposes. The strategy was shared Deliver a Message and my schemes were Raid and Bodyguard. We agreed to reflip shared Slaughter as neither us has much experience at the game or large pools of models from which to choose, but Aramoro was of the opinion that the Showgirls weren’t going to have the killing power to make much of a game of that.

To summarise the game, there was some movement (generally toward each other) in turn 1. Turn 2 and the start of turn 3 were the crucial parts. Cassandra charges Santiago, declaring her sword dance ability. She strikes him for weak damage on the way in, then Red Jokers the actual charge attack killing the poor chap outright. She’d also got the trigger that allows a spell to be cast after the hit, so it was wasted (I like the idea of her breathing fire over his corpse anyway though). Sonnia then sauntered round a corner and stabbed Cassandra a few times and immolated her; Cassandra used a few Soulstones to survive on one wound. Sometime around now, the Witchling Stalkers killed off a Dove and the Corypheé. Turn 3 initiative was crucial, but went to Colette, so Cassandra casually sauntered up to Sonnia and hands her an envelope. In return, Sonnia turned her into a Witchling Stalker while she read her post. The rest of the game devolved into a ‘Benny Hill’-style chase as I moved someone into base contact with Colette at the end of the turn ready to deliver the message if I won the initiative next turn, but sadly I never did. The end result was a draw at four vps each, as I got none for Deliver a Message and two each for Raid and Bodyguard; Aramoro had all four from Deliver a Message but nothing from whatever his schemes were (Power Ritual and something else, probably Breakthrough).

So considering how the game flowed overall, it seems to me that the Showgirls held their own nicely. Sure they can be killed, but I gain no benefit from that unless it’s part of the strategy.

[Aramoro]

That game was more just an example than anything else and It went pretty well for me in many areas. My question is really, Is the Benny Hill bit right. I know I'm not supposed to go toe to toe with, well anyone really.

I'm not complaining, Argentbadger plays a hard game which I appreciate. Just when your game ends with your last model running away from people waving letters at her it feels wrong. If that's what's supposed to happen then that cool and I can work on perfecting the art of messing around.

[Sholto]

At 25ss Colette is pretty limited in her options. Her crew cannot go toe-to-toe with anyone, but it is even less of an option if you are playing at lower ss levels where you cannot fit a Duet in.

At 25ss Shared Deliver A Message I might try one Coryphee and 2 Performer Mannequin pairs (leaving 6ss plus cache for whatever else you fancy). If you link one Mannequin to Colette on Turn 1, and if you have two Tomes in your Hand then on Turn 2 you can do this (starting 20" from the enemy Master):

Activate non-Linked Mannequin and Companion Colette, the Coryphee, one Performer and the Linked Mannequin. Move the Coryphee up twice (remember Pass Through if you need it). Have the Performer Bash Colette, miss, cheat a :tomes into Colette's Df and switch with the Coryphee. Colette Activates and Delivers The Message. At the end of her Activation the Linked Mannequin moves into base contact and then Activates. Mannequin Bashes Colette, miss, cheat a :tomes into Colette's Df and Colette switches with the other Mannequin.

In a single Activation you get 4VP, end with two Mannequins in the middle of the enemy force and everyone else is safely 18" away. Plus, you can leave behind a Dove if you want to be annoying! There really is not much an enemy Master can do to avoid this. You may now pursue your Schemes

Edited May 25, 2012 by Sholto

[Barnaberible]

The Benny Hill bit is only acceptable if there is chase music in the background (any Americans reading this are going 'who the hell is Benny Hill)

I find it helpful to get behind the story of the characters, Collette should never run, she should noncholontly dissapear into a puff of smoke giving Sonnia a cheeky wink as she she goes.

I think Collette is a difficult model to play at a 25ss level simply because you have a choice of picking something harder hitting like a duet or something more subtle. With Collette you should be dictating the pace and positioning of the games, never leave her more that 18" away from other showgirls so you can switch her and allways use reactive, use the other showgirls as anchors to move collette around the board. If you take sabotage and bodyguard you can generally guarantee 4vp, Cassandra can usually get sabotage off in turn 2 (I find power ritual a bit of a pain as you tend to be running around the board alot, and if you has taken bodyguard in the above game you would have won)

Once you are up on VP's its puts the emphasis on your opponent to do whatever they have to to get at least level.

However I think that if you find yourself in a situation where Collette is the only model left the I would say a tactical withdrawel (running away) is your best option.

I think Malifaux works so well as a game simply because its so different from anything else, its not simply a kill the enemy capture the ground type of game, you get alot of different crews that do alot of different things well, Some shoot, some hit, Collette moves so stick to things that your crew does well.

[Odin1981]

The main problem with colette at 25ss is you really lack a full compliment of options. Don't get me wrong I play both guild (dita and sonnia or my goto's) and arcanists (colette and lately ramos) so I am familiar with both sides of the matchup. At 30ss you might be lacking 1-2 cheap pieces that you can make early turns. but colette really doesn't start to shine until the 30ss region is breached.

If you are really familiar with her you can do well at 25 with the big 3 (duet and cassie) however if you make one mistake you our out a major model. However only having at most 4 activations on turn 1 is kinda lacking. The sonnia list is actually a decent list in that you get your shooters and melee types so it is balanced in melee/ranged capability.

The best thing I could give with advice is use your mobility to take out the ranged components of that list fast (santi and nino) and spend ss for defense against sonnia's blast damage spell then when that is done concentrate on yolur objectives and stiffing them on 1-2 of theirs so you win via vp's.

However that being said I will add that at 25ss you probably lack enough models to be able to keep up with the focused pressure of the guild list at 35ss however it becomes warped the absolute other way around into the colette players advantage because you can run your full compliment of a crew with enough hitters to take out key models plus pressure sonnia while due to speed and transpisition type abilities to hit and away the key models that at 25ss you don't really have the options for.