Nekima whining

[Mournafein]

I'm just curious as to why Nekima is still 13ss. What kind of games she's designed to go in, at this point. She's going to be pulling the weight of 1/4 to 1/2 of an entire crew, at her current cost... She lacks the survivability or utility to make up for 13ss. I can see her costing 9 or 10... Which is still quite a bit... But I don't ever see her become any more useful than a black blood shaman or Coppelius or Teddy for that matter. She's great, don't get me wrong... But the shear cost of her alone, compared to what you can do with those points alone. I love the model and the rules with it. I'm not saying that Neverborn deserve a 5 point beatstick from hell... But when much cheaper models have better singular results, there seems to be a slight miscalculation in worth.

I'm not a pro at this game, and I know she's good. But I've yet to see anyone say she's worth 13ss, without giving the mask to anyone other than tots and young... Especially if you're not a growth whore.

[Requirement]

If you aren't growmancing... she's fairly useless. Unfortunate side affect of being neutered(in a way that I, frankly, understood and supported, but was still a cuddle) without a drop in her cost...

[Mournafein]

Yeah, tell me about it. Drives me crazy. I love the model and I didn't spend the time and money on it, painting it, and putting it together to use it as a damned proxy model because of her base size. I hate running the cheese of growth lists. I like strategy, not just zeroing with better models. =\ Does anyone know how to most effectively use Nekima?

[Serigala]

A local player won a recent tournament with Nekima and Terror Tots. Boosted all the Terror Tots with Nekimas pulse and then had them do all the hard work. I think he might have grown a young or two but didn't bother with a mature.

[Mournafein]

A local player won a recent tournament with Nekima and Terror Tots. Boosted all the Terror Tots with Nekimas pulse and then had them do all the hard work. I think he might have grown a young or two but didn't bother with a mature.

And that's kind of what I'm talking about. It's paying for a BBS and a Beatstick model... Hell, you could take a BBS and Lilitu with some of those tots and come out with a lelu (4 points more than a tot and much better) and having much more AP to spare for the match, instead of spending the few that Nekima has. Also, note the amount of soulstones the game was.. If its any less than 50, I'll give him props or his opponent wasn't savvy. Nekima isn't very resilient and is very limited, actions-wise

[notmikehill]

I posted in the Neverborn forum about this a few weeks ago. The thing I kinda think is happening is that the model itself is kinda between two definitive styles, Beatstick & Support. She has some definite beatstick capabilities but lacks the sustain other high cost minions have (like hard to wound or spirit) and has some impressive support spells that only cater to very specific minions with little diversity to the lists or style of play you'd use her in. I feel like Nekima is torn between two separate models and is in need of a revisit, or at least some form of change before being worth the 13 soul stones.

Just my 2 cents I suppose!

[Q'iq'el]

A local player won a recent tournament with Nekima and Terror Tots. Boosted all the Terror Tots with Nekimas pulse and then had them do all the hard work. I think he might have grown a young or two but didn't bother with a mature.

That's the only thing she can do though, other than the Growth list.

I mean, look at it two ways - not only does she costs 13SS, but it is actually big and expensive as hell for a single mini... and from all the Strategies you may flip, you take her with a some babies for Reconnoiter, Plant Evidence and perhaps the Line in the Sand, if the opponent is right. Not only some of the less spectacular scenarios (some people never play them), but also ones that do not fit her posture or fluff at all.

What she should be is a model you take for Slaughter for points denial, which also makes Nephilim kill better (all, not just Young and Tots). The second part would make her useful for other scenarios as well.

[Mournafein]

I couldn't agree more with Q and Notmike... It baffled me that she really only flourishes when you're using her to grow or support young/tots. Because no one in their right mind is going to pay for a 13 point beatstick. Don't get me wrong, she can dish out some damage, but taking it is NOT her deal. If you want her to have some survivability, you're looking at pulling her out of combat with transposition or luring or a BBS blood in the air or something. Either way, her viability becomes pretty low when compared to the BBS/other models options. If I wanted a beatstick I could just hire a mature neph or teddy, for that matter. Or even the twins.

And Q, I know! I bought the model hoping she would have so much more practical use.... But after using her, she's just flat out NOT worth the $30 and 13ss. Really cool model, otherwise. If she doesn't get a revisit soonish, I might just convert her into a really impressive avatar Lil. XD

---------- Post added at 11:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:23 PM ----------

Also: I would like to point out that Ophelia is 8ss... And she does more damage with a PAIRED, has more survivability, AND takes the negative "Woops," away from all Gremlins, AND gives a lot more mobility to the crew... Sooo... Yeah. Oh, and her mask is given to ALL gremlins. And has a 0 action to give the ram... And Nekima is... 13ss. >,<

Edited May 1, 2012 by Mournafein

[notmikehill]

You've also gotten remember something dude. Nekima caused some severe infinite loops with models with mask triggers. Ophelia has some nasty abilities but that's also due in part to the fact that she is a henchman and can be a henchman or master.

It's tough to really say (to me at least) what I think they'd need to do to her to make her playable. She doesn't have soulstone use, if she did that would teeter on the lines of broken yet again. Perhaps maybe giving her hard to wound 1 on top of her regen 1 would help. I know Q had written up some pretty good points in my previous thread but I'm tired, and so is my search fu!

[Sliver Chocobo]

She's a mature nephilim, but better if had Nekima i wouldn't have a mature. Even then i wouldn't use her in games less than 40SS

[Q'iq'el]

Actually Nekima wasn't the problem. The infinite loop itself, bad as it sounds, was manageable, esp. If you consider the huge cost of the combo.

It was the FILTH list with Nekima, two Lilitus and Pandora which was the reason behind the cuddle. They could modify Lilitu's rules or restrict Pandora from taking Nekima, but they've chosen to tamper with a 30$ minion instead.

---------- Post added at 05:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:01 PM ----------

She's a mature nephilim, but better if had Nekima i wouldn't have a mature. Even then i wouldn't use her in games less than 40SS

Actually she isn't much better at that either. Costs more and isn't expendible. Also even harder to hide.

[Mournafein]

I know she had some infinite loop nonsense, but the cards still had to be right to cast, and opponents still get a resist. I'm not saying that makes it much better... But in a game where a master can make soulstones and use them like candy, and other minions can do much more damage... I don't think it's too bad to ask that she can still give the mask. At the very least I'd like it to be a target spell. In that way only one model would get the mask and it's not an infinite lure-flay death loop. It's just super useless to even consider bringing Nekima if you're not running a growth/tot list. I paid quite a bit of money for a model that I am not going to use, simply because of the rules attached to it. And while infinite loops ARE bad... You still have Hamelin piping people off of board edges, Ophelia doubling her damage and potentially one shotting many models, people with "Headshot" instant kill abilities, and people that can do a ton of damage just on a wp check, I personally don't think it's THAT bad, in comparison. I think the reason she originally was 13ss was because of the great buff. Otherwise there's no way to justify her price in anything other than a solid growth list.

I'm not disagreeing with you guys' points, at all. I'm just saying that there's worse for less points (In my opinion, since she's relatively easy to kill) Is she the most expensive model in the game? I don't think I've noticed anything more expensive.

[Lucidicide]

Is she the most expensive model in the game? I don't think I've noticed anything more expensive.

She is tied for most expensive.

[Mournafein]

Again Q, you are right.

[Gruesome]

I faced her for the first time in the story encounter at adepticon.

Aside from being happy to see her for the first time and thinking it was cool that there was a mature and young on the table in a 25 soul-stone game on turn one that had been two tots a moment before, I did not think she was nearly worth the points.

Mind you, my opponent and I drank most of a bottle of Jameson, but Nekima got slightly too close and two rotten belles lured her to her death and provided me with the last of the corpse counters I needed to drop a bolstered Rogue Necromancy and a Flesh Construct onto the enemy crew in the same turn. (And replenish my hand)

Irresistible was a little irritating, but with 4 bolstered canine remains yapping at her heel, I got enough attacks through that I papercut her to death. (And black blood was kind enough to eventually do the work of killing them for me so that I could summon something bigger)

13 points is too much for the utility she brings (certainly in a 25 point game) . That much of a list tied up in one model guaranteed that I was out-activating every turn and getting three or more models to take actions without enemy reaction. And once she fell and I put the two BEEFY guys on the table with her corpse, it was that much more of an activation advantage. Nicodem sat in the middle of the board and paralyzed the mature as soon as he was within range and he never moved for his remaining two rounds of life.

When I think of the twins for one more point, she makes no sense at all to me.

[notmikehill]

Her point cost is probably one of the bigger reasons I don't use her in most games. One of the better points I saw mentioned here is that she's good at point denial in a slaughter game, but that does require you to play very defensively with her.

I don't think it's fair to write her off just yet because we do have a new book coming up and it could allow us to hire minions to be henchman or even lead crews, as well as we may get a new special forces (here's hoping Nephilim!)

[Q'iq'el]

Her point cost is probably one of the bigger reasons I don't use her in most games. One of the better points I saw mentioned here is that she's good at point denial in a slaughter game, but that does require you to play very defensively with her.

Actually I've said she should be a good point denial, but instead she ends up giving up these 13SS all too easily. She lacks survivability and is way too easy to catch and kill the way she is right now. It's probably easier to deny these points with 4 Terror Tots, than with her.

[Mournafein]

I can agree with Mike on the new book and not losing hope. But I'm going to be $$$$$$$$ed if she doesn't get revised soon. XD

[Justin]

Actually Nekima wasn't the problem. The infinite loop itself, bad as it sounds, was manageable, esp. If you consider the huge cost of the combo.

It was the FILTH list with Nekima, two Lilitus and Pandora which was the reason behind the nerf. They could modify Lilitu's rules or restrict Pandora from taking Nekima, but they've chosen to tamper with a 30$ minion instead.

Since there is now a hat above my name I should preface this with the fact that I was not official at the time of the Nekima errata and I have no idea what the discussion was like for the wyrd team at that time.

But that said, from a game design perspective, I think the errata was the right move and would have been even if the infinite loop didn't exist. The reason I say this is because Nekima's ability blatantly added masks to casting totals, which not only caused one infinite loop, but hampered the design of all Future Neverborn models. So, the design team would need to take into account Nekima's buff with the cost of every Neverborn spell they design after book 2 and that is going to artificially raise the cost/reduce the effectiveness of any Neverborn spell the team wanted to design with a mask in its casting total. Which also means those spells would be basically useless without Nekima.

So, from a design perspective, I think the errata was absolutely the proper choice. It's much preferable to nerf one model as opposed to nerfing one faction from here to eternity. And then, on top of it, the filth list did exist.

That said, I'm not saying anybody's concern is not valid, simply that I understand the decision.

[Q'iq'el]

There are abilities in the game that add suits to Ca or Cb of other models, which aren't seen as game breaking. Showgirls in particular have several ways of doing it. Nekima too was affecting only Nephilim, so she wasn't affecting the entire faction anyway, right?

I don't even see the loss of that one ability as the main problem. The main problem is the premise behind Nekima, that is to say a speed buffing Nanny for Terror Tots. It simply doesn't fit her fluff or status. It is particularly disappointing because Wyrd generally is very good about matching the rules with fluff.

With ability to add masks to Ca or Cb of her entire crew she was, at least, needed at the frontlines and had some opportunity to swing that sword of hers.

I guess I was too hasty - I should've waited with the purchase until the model was fully tested and reviewed.

I also can't help thinking she was a rush job, which is a pity for such a splendid and expensive model. Her fluff is scarce, her role among Nephilim (accordig to the fluff) hard to figure and the rules seen to be slapped to make her worth taking, without giving much thought to the side effects - which eventually resulted in the cuddle.

The very least we know is she isn't a milkmaid, but a frontline general of the Neverborn - a cunning and fiery fighter. Please, make her so.

[Justin]

Was it just nephilim? (so soon I forget, this is why they threw me to the puppets) Regardless, Nekima's ability seriously limited the sort of spells (even just on nephilim) which could have been designed in the future, so I'm a fan of the errata, and support the team that made it.

As to your other points about the fluff and such, I simply can't comment on that. Not my domain at all.

[Q'iq'el]

As to your other points about the fluff and such, I simply can't comment on that. Not my domain at all.

Fair enough. I guess the point of bringing the fluff here is that, ironically, the ability to support Nephilim in combat by giving them extra masks (within 6") was the only reason to risk entering combat with Nekima. Now that she cannot do it anymore, the entire effort goes into keeping her close to Tots, away from the opponent. She is actually decent at protecting the Tots, if only because she's a bullet magnet, so to speak.

In other words a purely technical change has sabotaged the only thing that made her remotely fluffy on the table. Sure, one can force himself to push her into combat still, but it is an exercise in frustration.

The change, to put it simply, exposed Nekima for being poorly designed and not in line with the fluff. I'd argue it was the first such mistake Wyrd had ever made, but I can't be sure of that. I hope the designers can see it and rewrite her. I'd pay for the new card, no problem. I've already paid a fortune for the model and the shipment to Japan.