Slow to Die and Sacrificed

[Tigerstyle]

I'm fairly new to the game, so this might be an obvious question but I'm can't seem to find a definite answer.

If a model is sacrificed by an enemy ability, can it use it Slow to Die talent to take an additional action? The wording on Slow to Die says "after this model is killed" and killed and sacrificed seem to be different.

Specific example being Leveticus' Entropic Transformation being used to target and sacrifice a wounded Bete Noir. Normally Bete would Slow to Die and re-bury herself, but in this case as she's being sacrificed can she do that?

Thanks!

[edonil]

You're right in stating that killed and sacrificed are different things. If something is sacrificed, it isn't 'killed', but both killing a model and sacrificing it will remove the model from the board.

[Aramoro]

I believe you are right in saying that if you Sacrifice Bete Noir then you cannot use the slow to die trigger. You can't use Slow to Die off any of the instant kill effects.

[Tigerstyle]

That's what we thought and how we played it that she couldn't Slow to Die. Bete ended up perma-dead.

[Q'iq'el]

I believe you are right in saying that if you Sacrifice Bete Noir then you cannot use the slow to die trigger. You can't use Slow to Die off any of the instant kill effects.

Actually you can use Slow to Die on instant kill effects. It's just that it won't heal the model.

Bête Noire is very special, because she actually seem to be able to shrug off such effects (especially with the most recent ruling). That's because she heals and Buries before she gets to be removed from play, only to return to the game later. If I understand correctly, all the effects on her fall off from her at the end of the turn (recent ruling) while not affecting her, so once she returns to the game next time, the instant kill is not on her anymore.

Sacrifice is something else altogether. It simply doesn't kill model, so anything which triggers from the model getting killed doesn't happen. So in this case not letting her use Slow to Die was the right choice (if I understand correctly).

It is also worth noting some abilities and effects trigger from model getting killed or sacrificed. Bête Noire's Drawn to Death works like that. In that case it will not only go off from the obvious cases of kill and sacrifice, but also where model gets sacrificed by an ability you may not look at as an ability sacrificing models. For example, when Nicodem sacrifices a Corpse Counter to cast Reanimate, and that Corpse Counter happens to be a Mindless Zombie (a model), that is enough to trigger Bête Noire's deployment ability (since a model gets sacrificed).

[von Clausewitz]

Actually you can use Slow to Die on instant kill effects. It's just that it won't heal the model.

Bête Noire is very special, because she actually seem to be able to shrug off such effects (especially with the most recent ruling). That's because she heals and Buries before she gets to be removed from play, only to return to the game later. If I understand correctly, all the effects on her fall off from her at the end of the turn (recent ruling) while not affecting her, so once she returns to the game next time, the instant kill is not on her anymore.

Sacrifice is something else altogether. It simply doesn't kill model, so anything which triggers from the model getting killed doesn't happen. So in this case not letting her use Slow to Die was the right choice (if I understand correctly).

It is also worth noting some abilities and effects trigger from model getting killed or sacrificed. Bête Noire's Drawn to Death works like that. In that case it will not only go off from the obvious cases of kill and sacrifice, but also where model gets sacrificed by an ability you may not look at as an ability sacrificing models. For example, when Nicodem sacrifices a Corpse Counter to cast Reanimate, and that Corpse Counter happens to be a Mindless Zombie (a model), that is enough to trigger Bête Noire's deployment ability (since a model gets sacrificed).

It its actually the opposite for instant kill effects on bete. Because effects now resolve as normal when a model is buried she will remove all wounds, then bury, then her state is checked, the kill effect is still on her and she is removed from the game.

[Q'iq'el]

It its actually the opposite for instant kill effects on bete. Because effects now resolve as normal when a model is buried she will remove all wounds, then bury, then her state is checked, the kill effect is still on her and she is removed from the game.

I don't believe this is true at all.

You first need to consider what these effects do. They don't "kill" or "sacrifice" the model in the Resolving Effects phase (as some effects would), but rather kill the model instantly while it is still in play, regardless of the # of wounds it has.

When Bête Burries with One with the Night, she still freezes the effect on her (as she's not in play anymore) so she can't get removed.

Now the effect's duration ends in the Closing phase, but these effects don't do anything when they expire - they kill immediately and Bête has just stopped that from happening.

So they fall off from her without killing her.

I'm not sure if she can use it to avoid being sacrificed after receiving Massive Dose, for example, as some of those would sacrifice the model at the end of the turn (but again, argument can be made that effects can expire when models are out of play, but that they still cannot affect these models - which I think is at the core of the recent ruling).

[von Clausewitz]

Reread the bury errata. All effects resolve according to their descriptions, not just ones that happen in the closing phase.

[Q'iq'el]

You are right. I've remembered the Errata wrong. So Slit Jugular or Headshot will still remove the Buried model... it seems. I still have some problems with it, because it is somewhat weird of a situation.

See, there's no timing of resolution defined on Headshot or Slit Jugular, so you cannot say these abilities get resolved according to their normal timing. They simply apply kill when the kill would be applied in the duel sequence, but the duel sequence is no more after Bête Noire leaves play (Slow to Die interrupts it ant then she is not in play anymore, so no Duel against her is continuing).

I'd say there still is a window of possibility to interpret it as a situation where executing these abilities is no longer possible (as the moment they should be resolved at doesn't happen at all).

Either way, she gets her Slow to Die action. She just may not be able use to avoid dying.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Q'iq'el

[Tigerstyle]

Thanks for the all the help on this question.

As an extension to this question, I'm just trying to get my head around the Bury errata and how it effects Bete Noir.

Say for example, Bete is on 4 wounds and is hit by an ordinary melee/ranged strike which causes 4 wounds. This reduces her to 0 wounds and so would kill her. She uses Slow to Die and uses One With the Night to Bury and fully heal her. Can she still do this with the Bury Errata?

The way I was reading the Errata and subsequent discussion for Bete was the only thing it stopped her doing was keeping up Depraved Tactics for several turns, but I was told differently in a recent game.

[Q'iq'el]

She can still do it. Abilities that heal models fully during Slow to Die specifically prevent models from dying out of losing all wounds, and she heals as she Bury, so before Slow to Die interruption ends.

Even though you'd still resolve her death after she's Buried, she's fully healed at that point, so she doesn't get killed anymore.

Indeed, all it changes is that she cannot stack Depraved Tactics anymore.

[Tigerstyle]

Excellent, thanks for the help. I never actually played her as being able to stack Depraved Tactics so she's still as cool as she was for me