Ranged Spell Question

[ZiggyQubert]

Hey, this came up the other day and I have been unable to find anything on it -

What exactly is a ranged spell, the Young Lacroix have the Talent Tiny - ranged Strikes and ranged Spells targeting thsi model recieve - to ther attack and casting flips.

Now my question is what exactly is a ranged spell, I know the gun icon makes a spell a ranged strike (thus covered by the ranged strikes wording) my asumption is that any spell that has a range (the Rg Stat) is concidered a ranged spell, and thus would be at a - when targeting them

[dgraz]

It's the ones with the gun icon.

[ZiggyQubert]

It's the ones with the gun icon.

As I said the gun icon makes the spell a "ranged attack Spell" (rules manual pg 51) Im asuming that is something different than a ranged spell

so is there a differance between a ranged spell and a ranged attack spell?

[Shank Seamus!]

No, any spell with a gun icon is a ranged spell, same as any strike. Otherwise those little blighters would be amazingly hard!

[Vmag]

so is there a differance between a ranged spell and a ranged attack spell?

I believe there is. Not all ranged spells are attacks, spells that have the are ranged attacks as are all spells that have a Resist listed (see top of pg 18 I think). I'm not sure what the exact wording for Tiny is but if you've written it correctly in your original post then any spell with a range that targets the Young will get a -ve twist regardless of whether it is an attack or not. So spells that would not get a -ve twist are those that have a Rg of or or do not require a target (i.e. 'nominate model' etc).

[ZiggyQubert]

I believe there is. Not all ranged spells are attacks, spells that have the are ranged attacks as are all spells that have a Resist listed (see top of pg 18 I think). I'm not sure what the exact wording for Tiny is but if you've written it correctly in your original post then any spell with a range that targets the Young will get a -ve twist regardless of whether it is an attack or not. So spells that would not get a -ve twist are those that have a Rg of or or do not require a target (i.e. 'nominate model' etc).

That was my take on it (yes I coppied the wording from the card exactly)

[CRC]

As I said the gun icon makes the spell a "ranged attack Spell" (rules manual pg 51) Im asuming that is something different than a ranged spell

so is there a difference between a ranged spell and a ranged attack spell?

No. "Ranged spell" is short for "ranged attack spell".

Note: spells aren't "ranged spells" just because they have a Rg. They need the icon to qualify.

Evidence: spells have a Rg.

Caveat: I am not a rules marshal.

[ZiggyQubert]

No. "Ranged spell" is short for "ranged attack spell".

Note: spells aren't "ranged spells" just because they have a Rg. They need the icon to qualify.

Evidence: spells have a Rg.

Caveat: I am not a rules marshal.

Sh why do you believe this? The rules manual clearly states that the icon makes the spell a "ranged attack spell" I have to believe that a ranged spell is something different than a ranged attack spell, becauss -

A - the working is different

B - the wording "ranged Strikes and ranged Spells targeting this model" would be redundent if the two phrases mean th same thing (as spells with the icon count as ranged attacks and are modified in the same manner)

C - Why would they use a phrase that is short for something else? Certainly not to save space on the card

[Vmag]

No. "Ranged spell" is short for "ranged attack spell".

Note: spells aren't "ranged spells" just because they have a Rg. They need the icon to qualify.

Evidence: spells have a Rg.

Caveat: I am not a rules marshal.

For one I love your caveat, I really should just stick that as my signature since it applies to everything I ever say about rules. It's just my best interpretation and opinion.

Anyway, so would you say there is a distinction between what a 'ranged attack spell' is vs a spell which counts as an attack? The former having the and the latter only requiring that there be a Rst stat given in the spell description. I'm getting this from the top of pg 18 in the RM and had always grouped them together but maybe they are truly separate things. And I'll freely admit, the argument that a spell is a 'ranged spell' because it has a Rg is awfully shoddy. But I could see it as being legit because there are spells that don't have a range such as the pulses and auras.

My initial response to Ziggy's post was to agree with what had already been stated, that the ranged spell requires a but I kept reading it and that got me to thinking. Perhaps I've over-thought it (yet again).

[dgraz]

It's still;

It's the ones with the gun icon.

You guys are over-thinking it. All spells have a range (at least all that I can think of). C is range of caster. 8 is a range of 8. So if Tiny applies to any spell with a range, then it applies to every spell in the book and Tiny would say 'all spells'.

Those things are borderline OP already (over the line IMO) - I think they would be broke-tastic if Tiny worked the way you're trying to interpret it.

[Vmag]

Ok fine So basically Tiny boils down to this; if the Young would get cover from a spell he'd be exceptionally hard to hit ( for cover, for Tiny) but is not hard to hit at all by spells that are not in the same situation.

[dgraz]

I think it only fair since he can cast "Right between the eyes".

A spell that ignores all ranged targeting modifiers (it doesn't have the ), has a range equal to or better than most guns in the game, pretty much does 5 damage every time (since it is a :+fate:+fate flip for 1/2/5), he only needs an 8 of anything to get it off, and there is no resistance at all. Oh, and he can walk 12" first to get into position (so 22" threat).

[ZiggyQubert]

You guys are over-thinking it. All spells have a range (at least all that I can think of). C is range of caster. 8 is a range of 8. So if Tiny applies to any spell with a range, then it applies to every spell in the book and Tiny would say 'all spells'.

Well it only works aginst renged spells that target (so pulses and auras dont count), also there its entierly possible that in the future there could be a spell with no range (wyrd has done things like this before)

and Tiny would say 'all spells'.

Well in the same veign if they ment only spells with the icon, then they could have left out the "ranged spells" wording (as spells with the icon count as ranged attacks)

as for overthinking, my initial reaction to the rule was ranged spells? whats that? it must be spells with range.

[dgraz]

okay.

I don't mean to give offense, but to me, this feels like rules lawyering and that's fine but it's not my thing. So I'm out of the discussion. Hopefully a marshal will be along soon to clear this up. Good luck.

[Kogan Style]

The difference between a ranged spell and a ranged attack is that the Ca stat, and not the Cb stat is used, all other ranged modifiers are still taken into account (which is why I think they are the weakest form of spell). If you're trying to say that a spell has a range, therefore its a ranged spell, then you're talking about all spells. What if the model wanted to cast a spell on itself? It targets itself, the range is 'C' does that mean it has to cast on negative flips since its targeting a tiny model??

[Cornelious1424]

You totally have it wrong dude. Pg 51 of the rules manual says,

"Rg) Spell Range: A Spells Rg is the furthest effective distance, in inches, the Spell can reach. Spells that target the caster have a range of C. Spells with or in their ranges follow the rules for Aura and Pulse effects respectively (Pg. 20). Spells with a or icon in their Rg are melee and attack Spells respectively and follow the targeting rules for those types of attacks. Modifiers that affect melee and ranges attacks affect these Spells as well."

So, just because a spell has a range of 10" does not make it a ranged spell, it is just the maximum range of the spell. In order for a spell to be a ranged spell (thus making it a ranged attack as well) it would need to have in the spells range. This is why you don't get cover from Right Between the Eyes because it is just a spell that has a range of 10", and no . However, as a gremlin player my self it ABSOLUTELY needs to have the icon added to the spell at some point, as is it's insanity. That's another issue for another thread though.

Anyway, models that cast a spell with a range (and no ) would not get on the cast when they target Young LaCroix, unless it has the little gun icon.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Cornelious1424

[ZiggyQubert]

You totally have it wrong dude. Pg 51 of the rules manual says,

"Rg) Spell Range: A Spells Rg is the furthest effective distance, in inches, the Spell can reach. Spells that target the caster have a range of C. Spells with or in their ranges follow the rules for Aura and Pulse effects respectively (Pg. 20). Spells with a or icon in their Rg are melee and attack Spells respectively and follow the targeting rules for those types of attacks. Modifiers that affect melee and ranges attacks affect these Spells as well."

So, just because a spell has a range of 10" does not make it a ranged spell, it is just the maximum range of the spell. In order for a spell to be a ranged spell (thus making it a ranged attack as well) it would need to have in the spells range. This is why you don't get cover from Right Between the Eyes because it is just a spell that has a range of 10", and no . However, as a gremlin player my self it ABSOLUTELY needs to have the icon added to the spell at some point, as is it's insanity. That's another issue for another thread though.

Anyway, models that cast a spell with a range (and no ) would not get on the cast when they target Young LaCroix, unless it has the little gun icon.

As I've said before yes anything with the icon is definatly a renged spell, however the icon makes the spell a "ranged attack spell" not a "ranged spell" (as is stated in the rules) what then is a "ranged spell"?

= "ranged attack spell"

as a "ranged spell" is not explisitly defined (yes a "ranged attack spell" is defined) what eactly is a "ranged spell"

it could be either

- any spell with a range (i.e. Rg stat)

- spell with a icon

The rules are unclesr, both the wording of tiny (it states both attacks and "ranged spells" note- a spell with is already a ranged strike and would be effected if "ranged spell" was omitted from the description) and the rules for a spell with :range state it makes the spell a "ranged attack spell" implying that it is a spicific type of "ranged spell"

and yes this could be rules laywering / nit poicking, however it's also a valid question, and people are answering the question -

Q: What is a "ranged spell"?

A: a "ranged attack spell" is a "ranged spell" and nothing else is

Well I hate to say it but "ranged attack spell" does not equal "ranged spell", I would agree that all "ranged attack spells" are "ranged spell" but not all "ranged spells" are "ranged attck spells"

[CRC]

You're using the word "strike" and the word "attack" interchangeably.

They're different:

An attack is clearly defined on (I think) page 18.;

A strike is a basic attack with one of the two weapons (or bash) that a model has.

"Ranged strike" means shooting a gun (or a chain spear, or a thrown body...)

[Cornelious1424]

All spells have a range in the spells profile, weather it be C, 5", pulse, aura, etc, this does not make them "ranged spells". A spell becomes a "ranged spell" when it is considered a ranged attack by having in the profile of the spell. A spells range does not make it a ranged spell, just because it has a range of 18". I still don't think I'll sway your opinion on it though, hopefully a marshal comes along and sheds light on the issue!

[Mister_Q]

It's a bit confusing. I always thought a ranged spell was a spell with a range, and a ranged attack (spell or weapon) had the symbol, but I was corrected on it a few times. Now I play it as described here - only spells with the symbol are ranged spells. I still can't find anything in the Rules Manual that says that though.

[ZiggyQubert]

It's a bit confusing. I always thought a ranged spell was a spell with a range, and a ranged attack (spell or weapon) had the symbol, but I was corrected on it a few times. Now I play it as described here - only spells with the symbol are ranged spells. I still can't find anything in the Rules Manual that says that though.

Thats exactly my point the explisitly makes the spell a "ranged attack spell" and all I hear is people saying "No a renged spell is only a spell that has the icon" with no justification other than saying it makes the spell a "ranged attack spell" (as I've pointede out not the same thing as a ranged spell, because look its different wording).

I'm happy to abide by a martals ruling, but as far as I can tell from the manual there is no clear definiton of a "ranged spell" other than using the interpertation of a spell with a range (and yes I realize that this makes tiny more powerfull)

[CRC]

If you're right, then Tiny affects all spells, so why did they include the word "ranged"?

[DeusInnomen]

I've been following this thread, and I'm starting to suspect the problem is the wording of Tiny and not the mechanics. I think they meant one of two things:

1. The wording of the ability should say "spells" in this case, the "ranged" term is redundant.

2. The implication of "ranged spells" means that "melee spells" (that is to say, spells that have the icon) are not affected.

[ZiggyQubert]

So this is the problem with "Rules as Intended", which wyrd seams to support (I dont have a problem with this by the way), is that my interpertation of what they ment can be different from what other people ment, and we need to wait for them to weigh in on what they really ment.

I've been following this thread, and I'm starting to suspect the problem is the wording of Tiny and not the mechanics. I think they meant one of two things:

as stated above, this is another issue, is the problem with the wording of tiny or how spells are described.

1. The wording of the ability should say "spells" in this case, the "ranged" term is redundant.

Actualy I think the whole reference to spells at all would be redundent, afterall spells with the icon would still be effected if the phrase "ranged spells" was removed from the description (hence my thought that "ranged spells" refers to something other thatn spells with the icon)

2. The implication of "ranged spells" means that "melee spells" (that is to say, spells that have the icon) are not affected.

I would agree that the intent is that spells with the icon should not be effected, spells with the icon should be effected, spells without these icons, im not sure of, my personal feeling is that as the phrase used is "ranged spells" that all spells that target and have a range should be affected, as the best definition I can come up with for "ranged spells" is a spell with a range. And yes I would also agree that this makes tiny verry effective (again not sure if that was the intent or not), but then again tiny also has some severe limitations as well (cant engage, models can walk over them etc...) so that might be a fair tradeoff.

[CrouchingMoose]

The idea behind and is how they interact with other models in terms of stories.

obviously represents an ability that would require the activating model to physically touch the target.

is designed to represent when the ability would require a projectile of some kind to travel from the activating model to the target model. This projectile could be blocked by interveing models (ie. firing into melee) or terran(ie. obscuring, blocking providing bonuses to the defended)

anything with a Rg that doesn't have one of those 2 symbols is supposed to be an effect that the activating model exerts on the target model and the Rg involved would be the distance at which that ability could be effective.

Also an attack is considered to be action that allows a defending model to resist (this could either be a spells resist, or the defense flip a defender gets for being hit with a melee strike).

So by my reading of the rules, a ranged spell is a spell with in the Rg. A "ranged attack spell" would be a spell with in the Rg and also allows the defender a resist (basically it doesn't have Resist: - ). This would mean tiny would affect weapons with in the Rg or spells with in the Rg. So something like December's Curse (which has ) would be a "ranged attack spell", while something like Lure (which does not have ) would just be an "attack spell" even though it has a Rg

[CRC]

Actualy I think the whole reference to spells at all would be redundent, afterall spells with the icon would still be effected if the phrase "ranged spells" was removed from the description (hence my thought that "ranged spells" refers to something other thatn spells with the icon)

False.

Tiny: Ranged Strikes and ranged Spells targeting this model receive to their Attack and Casting Flips. This model does not block LoS to other models.

If it didn't include the words "and ranged Spells" then it would affect any spells, because no spell is a "Ranged Strike". Only weapon attacks (and bash) are ranged strikes.

Strike is not the same thing as Attack.