mcmourning san Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 So then which is the more competitve master? And can someone please explain the awesome synergy of the student of conflict and lucius with Lady J as I have not played these models together and have no idea what they are capable of. In addition, I usually run Perdita [5ss] Von schill Guardian Witchling stalker Witchling stalker Witchling stalker Watcher as an all comers list, but is the Lady J + lucius + student of conflict more potent than this? Looking to you Nilus cause I know you love the Ram! :Smug_Puppet2: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 The LJ + Lucius + student is sort of a one trick pony. You give LJ fast with the student, then you put her far up the board with Lucius. Then she charges in and smacks around your opponent early in the game. Its works well against slower crews(Ramos and Raspy hate it), doesn't do much vs Neverborn. -------------- As far as your all comers list above. The Guardian seems like a waste of points, he is not going to be able to keep up with Perdita or Von Schill. Also the Stalkers are not going to contribute much for a few turns since they are slow. Personally I am not a fan of all comers list in Malifaux. Especially with Guild. There are to many factors in Strategies to just stick with a certain set of models and expect to be competitive with them. As a for fun, local play list what you have above is great but not very thematic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requirement Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 So then which is the more competitve master? And can someone please explain the awesome synergy of the student of conflict and lucius with Lady J as I have not played these models together and have no idea what they are capable of. In addition, I usually run Perdita [5ss] Von schill Guardian Witchling stalker Witchling stalker Witchling stalker Watcher as an all comers list, but is the Lady J + lucius + student of conflict more potent than this? Looking to you Nilus cause I know you love the Ram! :Smug_Puppet2: It all depends on how you play. I personally don't like slingshotting my master into a deployment zone unless I know they will be fine. So, yes the Lady J + Lucius + SoC = powerful and crazy. It's just not really my play style, so it doesn't end up being that strong for me personally (however mentioning how powerful this is and then fielding the crew, regardless if you plan on doing the big slingshot, is fun. Makes your opponent tremble a little. There might even be more power in this than actually ever doing it.) The Perdita crew above isn't bad, but it also comes with a lack of synergy. I know the Guardian is great and I like him, but for the same SS you can have a Witchling Handler, who buffs the Stalkers and gets buffs from them. She also adds a lot of fun control on your opponent's casting. Not a bad list really, just depends on what you want to do with it. I am also aware I am giving you the most wishy-washy answer of all time. Sorry. The big thing I like about the guild is there are so many combinations and so few of them are actually "bad." So much of making a crew for the Guild is what Strats and Schemes you are taking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcmourning san Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Well it's a cheese list because I typically take bodyguard for Schill & Perdita and make them stay with Guardian, Df 8 on Dita and slow to die + soulstone heal on Schill make this combo VERY difficult to deal with, except armor ignorers...damn them!! But you know I have been waiting for critiques and help playing guild as no one in my meta runs with guild. What suggestions do you have for staple takes with Dita or J if she's better? I completely understand the all comers list being a waste as Malifaux is a game of great dynamics and multiple factors but surely there are staple models as in Lucius with Justice. All help is greatly appreciated!! =) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requirement Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Seriously, nilus? If we didn't agree on so much I would be a little hurt that you always get there first as I'm typing. No more (0) Quick Draw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcmourning san Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 They are taking 0 quick draw away?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nix Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 I will first say, Perdita does not fit my playstyle so I enjoy poking fun at her. Only take my comments about Perdita half seriously! Now with that, I will also say that your list looks like a fun list, which could be made better with either Lady J or Sonnia. Perdita can be competitive I just tend to do much better with Sonnia, and to a lesser extend Justice. For that matter, I am more successful with Lucius than Perdita. Now, on the Lady J & Lucius list. I worry a bit about the fact that its too easy to predict where Lady J is going to end up. Even with Fast, ok. So now she will be in a predictable spot with fast. I have been playing at higher points with Lucius, Justice, and another hitter like Judge or the Executioner. This way even if my opponent can predict where I am going to drop something, they do not know which one is coming. If they gear up for Justice, I can drop in my other hitter to tie them up, shift around, and then drop Justice next turn. At 30ss I cannot do this. I just do not see Lucius as competitive as a henchman at a 30SS level. It is interesting to see so many austringers and lucius floating around this thread though! On the one hand, its interesting to realize that guild strategy for competitive games does not seem to have shifted much since Gencon. It is also interesting to see whats floating to the top of "good guild builds". Austringers are great, but I only have them really paired up with one master in what I would bring competitively. Maybe I will lose real real bad at Adpeticon and prove my strategies for the game are completely off!!! *grin* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requirement Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Yes, that one.... Have I mentioned before how much I completely suck at searching for things... I mean... I know its on that big page of smilies but ___I___ cannot find it.... :-\ All you have to do is type *grins * removing the space after grins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nix Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 All you have to do is type *grins * removing the space after grins I got it to work on my last post... now to use it gratuitously! Thanks! *grin* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requirement Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Are they taking (0) quick draw away?! No, I was making a joke that nilus had quick drawed me. Alternatively, we could just spread that rumor? Also, seriously, I'm only posting on dead threads from now on. I've been a day late and a dollar short all day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Bigglesworth Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 +1 to nix and requirement the slingshot's strength is noy in its use but its threat. Also a vanguard model primed with melee expert and fast is scary dangerous. Try giving to a model with flurry like peacekeeper, a model that can produce 5 paired attacks cb 6, 8 with inspiring swordplay, from 7" of wherever he is placed. A vanguard model is key to slingshot success for me. I agree nix austringers are good but overused. They have great range, but cant really stand up to attacks nor do lots of damage. @nilus turn master kill is a great ability j can do with slingshot, but that means you are trading your queen for your opponents queen. I don't like to do it in chess, nor do I like to do it in this game. Slingshot gives me board control. I can be where I need to be and i dont see where neverborn have any advantage over any other factions against the slingshot. If anything neverborn usually have lower model counts where i can burn activations slingshot kill without same turn retaliation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 @nilus turn master kill is a great ability j can do with slingshot, but that means you are trading your queen for your opponents queen. I don't like to do it in chess, nor do I like to do it in this game. Slingshot gives me board control. I can be where I need to be and i dont see where neverborn have any advantage over any other factions against the slingshot. If anything neverborn usually have lower model counts where i can burn activations slingshot kill without same turn retaliation. My point against Neverborn is the fact that they are going to be up in your face soon enough as is. No reason to shoot LJ to meet them half way when you can now wait for them to come to your entire crew. For the points you spend on Lucius and the Student you can have some heavy hitters waiting to retaliate(now that retaliation is an options....Thank you Wyrd god for the chompy errata). Against a slower moving crew, or better yet someone Malifuxbating in there deployment zone the Lucius sling shot is very good. But for me unless I need to be on the other side of the board for a Strategy I am most likely going to blow those points on something else. Like you said its very rarely a good idea to trade Queens. Plus in all honesty it starting to be an over used strategy in my mind. I hate doing the same thing everyone else does. ---------- Post added at 07:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:36 PM ---------- They are taking 0 quick draw away?! I think he was complaining about the fact I posted before him with basically the same comment. They are not taking Quick Draw away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Bigglesworth Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Also i have to mcmourning san that is not a cheese build and in most tourney schemes are unique, so ya another reason its not cheese... *grin* I feel you on overused abilities, I do use it for about 75% of my builds, my meta still hasnt beaten it. I don't use it in first turn very often, maybe 20% of the time as you pointed out campers or master crucial crews like nico. Kill nico by turn 2 that is game 9 times out of 10, or contain power first to kill master gets extra vp. Slingshot strength is threat, anticipation, objective placement, it can be used on whole crew. Weakness one activation between strike. Point sink, easier to anticipate, left open to retaliation more often then not. I get your point on neverborn, but slingshot doesn't have to be used turn 1 and sometimes j needs to be placed with 4 ap to use. Plus if I can place with multiple models in range i can probably kill most everything in range with right swordstyle and stones. This means best not to bunch up, that can really mess with some crews. Neverborn speed does mean i dont need slingshot to hit crew by turn 1, but full ap helps alot. Slingshot can still threaten fast crews and usually means most attack vectors can be covered. Since some neverborn can hit me from 16" means they can sit back and wait for me to come in range and get first strike, slingshot allows me to now say i can jump into my optimum range of 10" and hit multiple times. J is a threat to kill any model with two ap but few with one ap. She can shut down Pandora especially with lucius, with dreamer errata she can now bust chompy, z is z, depends on crew but never felt major threat, only lilth is hard to fight, but in straight fight j will drop lilth probably 60% of time with even stones. Typed on phone in multiple sits so sorry if a bit disorganized Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odin1981 Posted March 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 I will first say, Perdita does not fit my playstyle so I enjoy poking fun at her. Only take my comments about Perdita half seriously! Now with that, I will also say that your list looks like a fun list, which could be made better with either Lady J or Sonnia. Perdita can be competitive I just tend to do much better with Sonnia, and to a lesser extend Justice. For that matter, I am more successful with Lucius than Perdita. Now, on the Lady J & Lucius list. I worry a bit about the fact that its too easy to predict where Lady J is going to end up. Even with Fast, ok. So now she will be in a predictable spot with fast. I have been playing at higher points with Lucius, Justice, and another hitter like Judge or the Executioner. This way even if my opponent can predict where I am going to drop something, they do not know which one is coming. If they gear up for Justice, I can drop in my other hitter to tie them up, shift around, and then drop Justice next turn. At 30ss I cannot do this. I just do not see Lucius as competitive as a henchman at a 30SS level. It is interesting to see so many austringers and lucius floating around this thread though! On the one hand, its interesting to realize that guild strategy for competitive games does not seem to have shifted much since Gencon. It is also interesting to see whats floating to the top of "good guild builds". Austringers are great, but I only have them really paired up with one master in what I would bring competitively. Maybe I will lose real real bad at Adpeticon and prove my strategies for the game are completely off!!! *grin* The problem that it hasn't changed much is mainly due to outside of 4 models from book 3 one of which isn't even "guild's" (wardens not out yet, witch handler, exorcist, and johnny cash) none of the models encourged any changing of tactics or added new possibilities imho nix. All they did was reinforce existing playstyles that guild runs or has. I honestly think the dreamer/bury errata was alot more of a big deal for guild then the entire minion/avatar selection from book 3. Perdita's avatar to me seems intresting but I have long ago stopped posting elite lists on the guild forum due to a lot of posters not liking/hearing about them. She seems most to me her avatar that would benefit them. Perdita herself is and a good balanced crew run by her seems to also be best run imo against common forum internet wisdom. The biggest thing I have found with guild is you have to play against the grain compared to what most other factions/crews due in regards to priority of taking care of things in game to me at the moment. I was listening to you podcast the other day (the newest one) and you asked the other people who where with you how they play their game. I believe to run guild most effectively (or it could just be my preferred playstyle or the one I am best at is that you have to attack the models/schemes/strats of the opponent first and foremost with guild due to speed or lack their of options present in the faction granted handler/stalkers,watchers,dogs,dita also our good at capping our stuff but I feel the guild does best by attacking the opponents stuff first while moving out with our grabbers to do stuff. But the first 3 or so turns I believe is better spent tackling/attacking the opponent and forcing them to react to us then personally trying to get our 8 first. Also with our grabbers in particular compared to others from other factions are a good bit weaker and more frail imho so to me it applies to use a force of models to engage and take pressure off our stuff that is looking to cap things turns 3,4, and 5 when our opponent has been dwindled down. On your point about austringers don't get me wrong I like them but I would only run 1 with perdita or sonnia specifically. The best austringer lists I think would be with ladyj, lucious, a couple wardens with 2 dogs or 2 watchers (in all but treasure hunt I am on the side of watchers in the dog/watcher argument) and a couple stalkers points allotting sprinkled in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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