The IP8 Beginner's Questions thread

[snord]

- Hi, my name is Edson and I am a beginner painter.

- Hi Edson!

- I would not like to be a beginner anymore, and that is why I am here. I honestly follow several blogs on miniature painting, read articles, bought a few books, and just recently started reading my wife's art books in the quest to improve my skills, but it is not easy.

Having seen some of the entries in the IP, several questions poped up in my mind about how some of the painters did some of the things they did, or which material they were using, or where did they got a model, etc. Maybe there are others out there that also have similar questions.

Although I totally understand that an artist's secrets are his and his alone, if any of you out there wouldn't mind to share some of them, it would be greatly appreciated.

So, to get started, I will add a few questions. If you also have questions, feel free to add your own. While I sometimes mention author's by name, the questions are open to anyone that would like to contribute, and as a mentioned name, don't feel obligated to answer if you don't want to.

1) Socket bases: an easy one to start. Where do you get your socket bases? or do you build/sand them yourself? (bonus points if I can get them in Canada)

2) Blends: many of the entries achieved such a smooth blend and color transition that leaves me drooling (@brushmistress and @Whyspyr are just 2 examples). I've been improving my blends over time, but I am still unable to achieve what you do. I did noticed differences not only with the techniques, but also with the paints/inks/pigments used. So questions:

2.a.) Do you use wet blending or layering?

2.b.) Is there any difference on how much you thin the paint to achieve such effect when compared to painting other parts of the model? Or depending on the color?

2.c.) Which paints/inks/pigments do you use? It would be great if you can talk about a specific part part of your model? I noticed that some of my GW/Vallejo paints leave a chalky texture while others don't... so I am curious about which material you use.

3) Inspiration vs Perspiration: I know some people just have the talent, and others (like me) have to compensate talent with lots of training. Can you recommend any books that helped you improve your skills?

4) Color Scheme: How do you choose your color scheme? Do you select the colors in advance, or you just go with the flow?

Thank you all in advance!

Edited March 6, 2012 by snord
Added links to the gallery

[reapergirl]

I don't think I'm all that great, but my dad is a professional artist, so I've been exposed to lots of art (and the making thereof). Here's a bit of what I do:

3) Inspiration vs Perspiration: I know some people just have the talent, and others (like me) have to compensate talent with lots of training. Can you recommend any books that helped you improve your skills?

I don't really do a lot of book learning, so I can't help you there... What has been helpful to me is to go out and look at art and experiment. Find things (minis, paintings, architecture, etc) that you like, and see if you can figure out what makes you like them, why they work.

4) Color Scheme: How do you choose your color scheme? Do you select the colors in advance, or you just go with the flow?

I frequently find a reference picture on the internet, and paint from that (a great example is the horned owl in my entry). If you're just beginning color theory, I'd heartily recommend that you start ignoring the names of colors on the paint pots. GW is particularly bad about mis-naming colors. Stare at everyday objects, and decompose the colors. Hands are particularly great for this... there's probably 50 different shades of colors on mine (blue, green, gray, orange, pink, etc...). After you've spent some time with this, grab your paints and try to match the colors that you see. (If you're using non-toxic paints, you can even try mixing up your skintone, and painting it on your hand to see how close you can get!).

I generally have a bit of an idea what color realm I want things to be in, and frequently have a very clear image in my head. In those cases, I mix up paints until things look right. When I'm at a loss for inspiration, I tend to play around on google image search, until something strikes my fancy.

I'm at work, so I can't answer the rest right now, but if you have other questions, keep them coming!

Edited March 6, 2012 by reapergirl
fix bbcode

[PaintMinion]

Wow, really good questions for your quest to become a non-beginner painter! To that quest I give you the following advice: If you are like me, you have read everything, seen step by steps and still are not seeing the results get better. For me, it took seeing it done in person in front of me, with some nudges and guidance. If you can get to a convention somewhere, there are usually classes - Gen Con, Adepticon, ReaperCon, GenghisCon...and others.

1) What do you mean by socket bases?

2) You want better blends - learn feathering and glazing. Glazing is your friend. it is just thin paint but you can get some great special effects with it. Personally I use Reaper Master Series, with some Vallejo here and there. Flow Aid, whatever brand helps too.

3) Books to buy or books to look at?

Sheperd Paine's book on How to Build Dioramas is a great reference - Shep is a Grand Master in the world of Historical and Military models. Found on Amazon here: http://www.amazon.com/How-Build-Dioramas-Sheperd-Paine/dp/0890241953.

The book of his life's work is impressive and also inspirational, and I do own it - he is a friend and I belong to the Military Miniatures Society of Illinois (MMSI) that has a show in October if interested in SEEING great stuff from around the world). Do not be afraid of the Historical minis side of the hobby!

I own the CMON Annuals books for inspiration and to show students when I teach. I also have some magazines, and other misc stuff from Ilyad, Andrea, and handouts and tutorials printed from dozens of great painters.

For what it is worth - Keep working on pieces and don't worry, it's only paint! Oh, and Higher Highlights, Deeper Shadows. ;-)

[LavronYor]

Okay, I have commented on your mini, very nice, btw and I will add some to this thread.

First, kudos to the linky. Being helpful to those trying to be helpful is great.

1. ditto to what Sue said. What do you mean by socket bases?

2.3. this is imho the best single tutorial that I have ever read, and Vincent Hudon is also a nice person, and Canadien.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=105449

let me know what you think. Also, have you tried playing with a wet pallete? This can help immensely with blending.

LavronYor

[Brushmistress]

There's some great advice given in the above responses.

My paint collection is a little bit of everthing - I use GW Foundation Paint, P3, Reaper Master Series and Vallejo Game Color. The only mixing medium I use is water. I paint with very thin mixes, and lots of layers. The pants on my IP entry were painted with a basecoat of GWFP Iyanden Darksun. Highlights were just the base color & white. The shading on the pants were painted with a various mixtures of the base color, P3 Sanguine Red and RMS Intense Brown.

A great brush is the best start you'll ever have when painting a mini - my personal favorite is Kolinsky Series 7 size 0 (regular round, not miniature).

I can only say "practice practice practice" if you want to improve. I've been at this for 10 years now and I'm still trying to push myself to get better.

[snord]

Thank you for the helpful answer and comments so far. Keep them coming.

@reapergirl the reason I asked for book references is that they have helped me a lot. For instance, the latest book I read (linked in my post) explains the concepts of dull and vibrant colors and how to move from one to another... pretty basic for painters, I guess, but I am a software engineer! Was awesome to read and finally understand that and helped me to start improving my shadows. Regarding color schemes, I found that looking for pictures of real objects helps a lot. Need to do more of that.

@PaintMinion thanks for the tips. I will look for feathering. I know what Glazing is in theory and I've been practicing it, but obviously have to improve it a lot. Thanks for the book references. Feel free to ask for your sales commission as I just place my orders for the book and the bundle of annuals. I love books of pictures of painted models for inspiration and somehow I missed the CMON annuals.

@LavronYor thanks for the link to the tutorial and your comments on my mini. Regarding the wet pallete, I do use one and I can't paint without one anymore. But, I am still doing layering on the mini, as I find the paint (I have GW and Vallejo) dries too fast for me to do wet blending like I read some people do. Should I be using some kind of product to prevent the paint from drying that fast when doing blending? Also, I usually make around 7 steps of colors on my pallete to paint the transitions and try to blend from there... is that not enough or it is a matter of skill... i.e., I have to train more?

* regarding the yellow blob on my blue gnoblar, it was my attempt at directional lighting, from the torch and the fire stick on his mouth. I obviously failed miserably!

* regarding the banner, I did paint both the banner and the ropes to age them, but apparently it was not enough... the "burned" is also all paint, no fire involved in the process, so I guess at least in that I succeeded...

Thanks for the help so far! It is appreciated!

---------- Post added at 04:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:16 PM ----------

@Brushmistress hearing you say you have 10 years of painting practice actually helps to lift the spirit... I started 2 years ago with the GW Academy... mind you, I always hated painting or doing any artistic activity with all my heart, until I painted my first mini... now I love it and spend quite a lot of time with the hobby. Maybe in 8 years from now...

Regarding the paints, I feel that it does not help to buy tons of paints if I don't know how to use them... I have basically the whole Citadel set and I am slowly expanding on Vallejo, but I still have a hard time painting with the Vallejo ones when compared with the Citadel... so, learning... I heard good things about the Master Series though.

For regular day to day painting, I use mostly citadel brushes, just because I think the cost benefit for them is ok, and they are ok brushes (except for the "standard" brush and the "basecoat" brush that I think are crap). I do have a Winsor&Newton series 7 000 for when I want to do very fine details. I will check out the Kolinsky ones that you mentioned.

Thanks.

[RealGenius]

1) Socket bases: an easy one to start. Where do you get your socket bases? or do you build/sand them yourself? (bonus points if I can get them in Canada)

Are you talking bases with a hole cut out for the base of the miniature? Many time you just skip the base and attach the miniature directly to the diorama, but I've cut "sockets" out of foam core and plasticard for when I want to remove the model from their display base socket. I usually only do this on army display boards, not dioramas.

Maybe I'm off on what you mean by socket base.

2.a.) Do you use wet blending or layering?

Not wet blending, because I work with acrylics (not oils). I think it is most commonly known as glazing-- where you repeatedly paint very thin, dilute paint to create a gradient. It takes lots and lots of practice, but I most definitely recommend taking an in-person class. I took a class at Adepticon with Mathieu Fontaine that was incredibly helpful.

Occasionally I'll use layering on very small areas, or areas where I want to save some time/aren't part of the focus of the model. Like this guy:

The focus is his face, so I spent a lot of time working on a smooth blends for the face, glowing eyes, etc. The wings in back are layered since they aren't the focus (and I just get tired of painting something after a while and want to get it "done enough")

2.b.) Is there any difference on how much you thin the paint to achieve such effect when compared to painting other parts of the model? Or depending on the color?

Yes and yes. I second (or third) the use of a wet palette. Part of the "practice" is getting a feel for how certain paints thin, and how thin they should be for what you're doing. Blending should be thinner than base coating, but probably thinner than you think they need to be. Here's a few links for how to make a quick, cheap wet palette to start out with.

2.c.) Which paints/inks/pigments do you use? It would be great if you can talk about a specific part part of your model? I noticed that some of my GW/Vallejo paints leave a chalky texture while others don't... so I am curious about which material you use.

Chalky might mean not thin enough when you paint but certain colors can be chalkier than others. Usually the Citadel whites and yellows are pretty chalky and the Foundation paints can feel a little chalky if you let them out too long. A wet palette will help in this regard.

I use mostly GW and P3 paints, but a lot of it is personal preference.

Can you recommend any books that helped you improve your skills?

Books and videos are good, there's also plenty out there in various blogs and youtube videos. But the best thing is a local painting buddy-- or better yet a local painting group. When you've got someone you can back-and-forth with on a regular basis, that's really beneficial. I always try to mooch off the smart people as much as I can.

How do you choose your color scheme? Do you select the colors in advance, or you just go with the flow?

A little of both actually. I really like tinkering with http://colorschemedesigner.com/ That's where I got the Orange-Blue-Green-Dark Orange scheme for my current army, plus you can easily share schemes which is fun for brainstorming.

Usually I'll have a main color in mind for a model, or sometimes just a color temperature and then play with triads or quads to pick the complementary colors. Or sometimes just pick a color I want to use; I really don't have a rule unless I'm going to match a certain scheme like a Space Marine chapter color.

EDIT: I just noticed you live in Montreal. Tons of famous miniature painters there!

[snord]

I am probably using the wrong vocabulary. I thought the wood bases used in the dioramas were called "sockets".

I found suitable pieces of wood in hardware stores, that are sanded and all, but they still look too rough I think. I think miniatures require polished bases and I haven't found them around here (Montreal) yet.

Edited March 6, 2012 by snord

[RealGenius]

Should I be using some kind of product to prevent the paint from drying that fast when doing blending?... i.e., I have to train more?

More water... and yes, more practice.

* regarding the yellow blob on my blue gnoblar, it was my attempt at directional lighting, from the torch and the fire stick on his mouth. I obviously failed miserably!

Here's a good series of blog posts about OSL and what can go wrong with OSL.

---------- Post added at 03:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:42 PM ----------

I am probably using the wrong vocabulary. I thought the wood bases used in the dioramas were called "sockets".

Ah, I think you'll turn up a lot more searching for "display plinth", "miniature plinth" or just diorama bases. A lot of companies sell wood and even resin versions that have texture already on them.

[snord]

@RealGenius thanks for all the info on your replies. Will carefully read all the links. And the Color Scheme Designer site looks awesome!

Really happy to receive so much good info from all of you!

[Wren]

My IP entry doesn't reflect this, because I was going for a bit of a different style, but in general I'm known for pretty smooth blending. It is all done with layering wet paint over dry (including feathering and glazing techniques). I have never, not once, used wet blending. You do not need to wet blend to get smooth results! It's a valid technique if you want to try to learn it, it's just not the only way to get things smooth.

In contradiction to LavronYor's advice, I find it easier to get smooth blends using a welled palette as it allows me to much more easily control the dilution of the paint and to touch up the mixes of colours if they aren't quite perfect. More steps between colours (how many mixes you step between dark to light) and thinner paint (though you can certainly go too thin, but novice painters with blending problems tend to be erring on too thick) are the first two things I would experiment with. I like to premix and predilute my paint. People who do well with the wet palette often seem to mix and dilute as they paint. I do use a wet palette, and I can see the appeal, but I don't think it works for all styles of painting.

Secondly, some paints are just more annoying. That's not any particular brand, just some colours tend to be harder to work with. White and colours with a lot of white in them often go grainy or are more challenging, but I have darker colours that give me fits, too. Paint brands can work better or worse with certain techniques. People who like wet blending or two brush blending seem to prefer vinyl based paints (GW, PP). People who prefer layering and glazing often prefer other brands. (Reaper Master Series, Vallejo Model Color.) I'm a layering/glazing person, and use Reaper Master Series. That is not to say that you can't layer with GW or PP paint, just a preference I've noticed in some painters. The only time I use inks is for glazes to intensify colours, and that rarely, so my opinion is not too useful there.

I agree about how helpful it is to see other painters working in person. If you can't get to an event, technology can help a little. There are an increasing number of DVDs with painting instruction. There are also free videos or samples from the for purchase ones on YouTube so you can get an idea of whether that type of instruction helps you.

The book PaintMinion mentioned for dioramas is excellent. For a quick tip on setting up a scene, even just a single miniature with scenery or accessories - go with as small a base as you can fit the action onto, and don't be too symmetrical. Worry less about whether something looks realistic and try to condense the action as much as you can and still tell the story. (You'll often see duel or fight dioramas with big bases with lots of space, and that probably is more realistic, but much less interesting for the viewer. It's like the movies, you want it to feel like it could be real, not necessarily be absolutely real.) Think about what's going on vertically as well as horizontally, and try to get things happening at different heights and angles and not just everything on a flat plane. (I'm still working on all of this too!)

Colour is tricky, and is definitely an area that still vexes me on occasion! I think one of the big novice mistakes here is trying to be 'real' again, which often means a rainbow of paints. Try using a smaller number of paint colours on a single figure/scene and you'll probably find that it comes together better. You can change these up subtly by making them darker or lighter or mixing them together. Study some figures you like, or look at illustrations, and you'll start to see how many artists do that. If trying to translate art colours to mini paint colours or working with a colour wheel is annoying you, you can try the ColorIndex or similar books. Just a big bunch of colour schemes ready to go.

[LavronYor]

In contradiction to LavronYor's advice, . I do use a wet palette, and I can see the appeal, but I don't think it works for all styles of painting..

In Contradiction? This seems to support my advice. Little known fact, I too use a well pallete. I rarely use a wet pallete. I was just suggesting it as another area to try. One of the best painters I know, says that the most important part of miniature painting is paint consistency or proper paint mixing, so don't think it is some easy thing that should be quick to learn.

The Jeremie Bonamant Teboul video is one of the best in my opinion. Another source of painting articles that is hard to find, is the painting sections in Cry Havoc Magazine which were put out by Rackham several years ago.

Good luck and keep on happy painting, as another great painter advises.

ps Wren, and after all those gems I gave you in DragonVale, et tu Wren....

Edited March 6, 2012 by LavronYor

[Wren]

Hey, you said a wet palette can help immensely with blending. I disagreed as I find it does not help me with blending (though does help with lots of other things, and helps some other people). No betrayal here! :->

[Webmonkey]

If I may make a suggestion. Given all of the other advice people are giving you, I won't restate what's already been said. My suggestion is this,...

Go to your local games store,.. and find some one there (if you can) who's paint you enjoy. Then ask that person if they'd be willing to show you how things are done. Most painters are more then willing to help people with their techniques. (this assumes that your LGS allows you to paint in their store as well).

Why do I say this? Because all the forum posts and book reading in the world, sometimes just won't do justice to actually seeing a particular technique being done. And if possible, buy 2 of the same fig, give one to your mentor, and keep one for yourself. Then sit down and paint the exact same things in the exact same way. (IE; if he paints the pants blue, then you paint the pants blue,.. if he then drybrushes a lighter blue over the ridges for highlight,... then you drybrush the lighter blue highlights as well,.. if he then washes with delvan mudd,.. you wash with delvan mudd,.. etc)

This way, you get to both "see" and "do" the work while it's in progress. Plus, your mentor can catch you in the middle of any mistakes and help correct you. Also you then have your mentors "master fig" to compare yours to when you are finished.

Hope this idea helps.

[snord]

Interesting comments about the wet pallete. After I started using it I find very annoying to paint without it because the paint dries so fast on a regular pallete, even when I mix a lot of water. Might try to come back for some things though.

And I agree, learning from someone really helps. I was doing that at our local GW store, as there was a guy there that was really friendly and helpful and liked to help everyone. Problem is he left, and the store is getting a lot more strict on allowing people paint there. Also, I could only paint GW minis there, and now I rarely paint GW minis... this diorama was the exception.

Anyway, I will look around... maybe I can find some Montreal painters...

[reapergirl]

Mathieu Fontaine is giving a masterclass in his hometown of Sherbrooke later this month. It might be worth a drive.

Also one last thing on color theory: the Bezold effect is important to understand. That's when our perception of a color changes based on what surrounds it. There are many articles on it, though I don't know of any that relate specifically to mini painting.

[snord]

@reapergirl thanks for the tip. I sent an e-mail to Mathieu to get some info on the class! Looks quite interesting and it is close.

I was reading about the Bezold effect in this book. It also contains exercises to help learn how the colors affect each other. Unfortunately, as you say, the book is more about 2d drawings. It does not have anything specific about 3d model painting.

[Death Angel]

1) Socket bases.

Here in New Zealand I often find these types of round wooden bases in craft stores. They can vary greatly in quality and for me they need to be super smooth if I'm going to use them, else they just don't look good. I often prefer to make up my own base that feels right for the piece though.

2) Blends:

I've used wet blending here and there in the past, but the humidity here tends to dry the paint too quickly even with extenders in it (to keep it wet longer). I tried all sorts of methods before I started using my main colour as the base colour, then adding shadows with very thin washes, a wash of the base colour around the edges of the shadows to soften them, then highlighting up with more thin layers. This made me see an almost immediate improvement in my own painting verses starting with my darkest colour and working it up.

I've also tried starting with a light colour and going down to create shadows, but I found it difficult to get the effect I was after this way. I don't think there is any method that is in general better than another, some just work better for different painters. One will end up feeling more natural and yield better results than others for you.

How much I thin the paint depends on the paint and the colour. Some need more thinning, others just don't work so well when thinned down too much.

When highlighting I tend to jump up to a lighter colour than I think I need, and do several layers very thinly to build it up slowly.

I mostly use Reaper Master Series paints, but I also have GW and Rackham paints. I like the texture of the Rackham paints for base coats and scenery mostly, it's very matt but is also slightly textured when dry so is not good for highlighting for the most part. The Master Series have a great range of colours and thin down very nicely.

3) Inspiration vs Perspiration

I've never read a book or watched a tutorial on painting. But I've asked lots of questions of people about specific areas of a model they painted to find out how they did it and then tried to practice from that. I don't really know many local painters and those I do know are mostly gamers who just paint their armies cause they have to, not because they want them to look awesome. There are a couple of exceptions to that, but I've never really had the opportunity to sit with them. One day I would love to do that!

4) Color Scheme

Sometimes I see a model and I know I want to paint it a specific colour. Sometimes I just know I want something to be blue, so I look for a blue that inspires at the time. Sometimes I plan it all out and base coat everything first to test the palette so I can change it without committing too much effort. Other times I pick a colour, then go from there looking for other colours that seem to go nicely with it.

I'm not too fussed about regular colour conventions, I'll often use purple and red, or light blue and dark brown together (combinations my highschool art teacher hated). I use what I like rather than what I think other people will want to see.

[Whyspyr]

Reapergirl beat me to it! I was going to suggest you attend one of Mathieu's Masterclasses. *wink* (Don't let the title Masterclass intimidate you-there were a few beginners in the one we had here and they were able to keep up just fine. Mathieu is a wonderful and accessible teacher). Don't get discouraged either-your entry shows that you have brush control down and a good sense of color. *grin*

[reapergirl]

@reapergirl thanks for the tip. I sent an e-mail to Mathieu to get some info on the class! Looks quite interesting and it is close.

I was reading about the Bezold effect in this book. It also contains exercises to help learn how the colors affect each other. Unfortunately, as you say, the book is more about 2d drawings. It does not have anything specific about 3d model painting.

The biggest way that I use it is to paint blacks and whites. It lets you use colors that on their own look quite non-black or white, but on the piece look black (or white) and then allow you to use black to shade them. Sadly, this is something I do intuitively, so I can't explain the process that well, I just know which color to grab. :/

[Wren]

What kind of dry palette do you use? The flower petal type, and some others, have pretty large wells. The larger the surface area of the paint, the quicker it dries out. Something with small wells keeps longer. Also if you fill the well more, and have thinned your paint. You can get drying retarder to add to paint, but smaller wells that you fill at least half way should help a lot.

I ended up getting three of these. They're handy because I can do lots of mixes before having to clean my palette, and the tiny wells work better for the amounts of paint I use. http://www.cheapjoes.com/art-supply/CJ15350_10497_cheap-joes-rectangular-well-porcelain-palette.asp

Also I use a damp sponge instead of a paper towel to wick and clean my brush. When I need to pause for a phone call or whatever, I put the sponge over my welled palette, and it keeps the paint at a good consistency a lot longer. Sort of the reverse of a wet palette.

[snord]

@Wren this palette looks interesting... the only palettes I've seen around here are plastic palettes that for some reason won't let me remove citadel paints after they are dry (yes, I tried several things) or metal palettes that are too big.

To be honest, I haven't used a regular palette since I learned to make wet palettes about a year ago. Before that I was using the small citadel palette and it has only 4 wells (obviously not anywhere near enough). I will look for the one you suggested or something similar.

[PaintMinion]

Matthieu is definitely a master to learn from, and also check out the video that Jennifer Haley and Anne Foerster did together. Should also help a bit.

As for bases, I get mine from Ken Thomas Bases, mostly at conventions, Wayne's bases, and other avenues online and personal. Always be on the lookout for good bases! For something that will be viewed as art, it needs a good :handle" so no one touches the minis!

Something else that wasn't emphasized enough here - your painting problems may not be you, it may be your brush! Try one WN Kolinsky Sable 0 and show us the efforts then. ;-)

And as a side note - have a wet pallette, never use it. Skya has tried to show me how to use it, but do not see how it can help me yet. Not saying it isn't a good thing - she does great stuff with it! Just not for me yet, if ever.

[Wren]

The really nice wooden display bases I've seen are from small one-man companies. Sometimes online, sometimes at shows. Those use very fine woods, and the prices reflect that.

I've got ones from cheaper wood that my stepfather made me, but aside from that you can buy raw wood plaque style bases and cubes at Michael's, Joann's or other hobby stores like that. You'll need to sand them. You can also stain them. I am too lazy to go get stain, so I either just paint them with mini paints or make homemade stain with Future and a bit of paint. If you want to experiment with water bases or cutting down into the base to build in some terrain and such, you probably want to start out experimenting with the cheap ones!

[Demonn Agram]

For wooden bases I'd recommend:

http://www.woodenbases.co.uk/