magicpockets Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 I'm not sure if this has been discussed before but another thread reminded me of something I thought whilst reading Twisted Fates and wanted to bounce the idea. Are Tyrants the previous "Masters" in Malifaux? An I don't mean in a "power" state, but in a physical "game term" sense. This came from the Levi transcending his body story (with Zoraida) and me wonder if Nytmare, December etc were once physical masters who transcended their bodies like Levi in Twisting Fates, but almost like the "next stage" of development? It just seems like the Leveticus story really was telling us something and seemed to be a thread between the power that turned people into Avatars and Levi becoming more than his Avatar. Too be fair I may be talking rubbish and way off, but wanted to bounce the idea in case anyone can explain why I'm wrong etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornelious1424 Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 I've always thought, my self, that they were previous masters in story terms (I mean, that is kind of obvious lol), but your thought is actually pretty awesome. That is some serious creativity and planning if you (Mr. Pockets) are anywhere close to being right about it, and my hat would have to go off to the guys at Wyrd if true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadeton Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 An interesting idea! I like the suggestion, especially the progression of Master -> Avatar -> Tyrant. I'm not sure that the Tyrants necessarily transcended their physical bodies, although some certainly did: the Grave Spirit, Cherufe, Plague etc. I would argue that December was very physically embodied in the Book 1 fluff. While his physical death was not the end of his influence, it made a significant difference in the relative power between him and Rasputina. There is possibly an alternate explanation in the way that the Masters' powers manifest - that the Tyrants are primal beings that find their expression through mortals. Many of the Masters have Tyrants that seek to act through and possess them - Cherufe through Sonnia, Gorgon through Seamus, Nytemare through Dreamer, December through Rasputina, and obviously Plague through Hamelin - so it doesn't seem unreasonable that those Masters' powers developed under the Tyrants' influence as a means of manifesting themselves directly. That's poorly worded - I guess what I mean is that someone like Rasputina may be the current focus of the power called December, but that there could well have been many other Masters before her who were similarly nurtured to become his conduit to Malifaux, each used and discarded in turn. There's also the question of who the Riders are - isn't it fairly explicit that their purpose is to bring about the end of the Tyrants? I thought I read that somewhere. And Leveticus, as the fifth Rider, is similarly an anti-Tyrant weapon deliberately crafted... by someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted March 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 Trouble is, ^^ doesn't explain where the Tyrants came from. But if they were real people (humans, Neverborn etc) who became powerful through soulstones and events like the breach opening then maybe they evolved into something like Levi is experimenting with now and got beaten by the Neverborn (iirc?) and their power diminished until these new vessels like Sonnia, Hamelin, Dreamer, Rasputina and Seamus (maybe Seamus - but that is then one per faction....) came along to give them a route back to their power? Wyrd are probably laughing at how off base this is, but seems to have a sort of logic to it (as logical as Malifaux is anyway!) Not sure it means anything in game terms, but would offer a cool Genesis story to the fluff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueStar86 Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 I always thought the Tyrants had started off as ordinary, if exceptional, individuals. Working their way from totems (everyone is at level 1 at some point) up to what they are now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadeton Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Trouble is, ^^ doesn't explain where the Tyrants came from. But if they were real people (humans, Neverborn etc) who became powerful through soulstones and events like the breach opening then maybe they evolved into something like Levi is experimenting with now and got beaten by the Neverborn (iirc?) and their power diminished until these new vessels like Sonnia, Hamelin, Dreamer, Rasputina and Seamus (maybe Seamus - but that is then one per faction....) came along to give them a route back to their power? I agree that "They were always there" is a pretty lame origin story, but it is the basis of a great number of similar godlike beings in real-world mythology. The fact that they tend to embody primal forces (fire, death, disease, etc) also works as a pantheistic model. However, I agree that your explanation is far more interesting. Wyrd are probably laughing at how off base this is, but seems to have a sort of logic to it (as logical as Malifaux is anyway!) Not sure it means anything in game terms, but would offer a cool Genesis story to the fluff. Agreed. It has the feel of something that could be developed over time into a really rich background. At the moment, it's a little underdeveloped, so it will be great to see more mysteries revealed as newer books come out. In a way, it sort of reminds me of 40K's primarchs - in Rogue Trader, they were just regular guys with a bit of backstory, then as more authors got involved they grew into legends. I'd love to skip ahead twenty years and see where the Malifaux fluff will be by that point. I always thought the Tyrants had started off as ordinary, if exceptional, individuals. Working their way from totems (everyone is at level 1 at some point) up to what they are now. Hey now, totems are a completely different kettle of weird fish. Per the Book 1 fluff, they're supposed to be manifestations that the various Masters simply imagined into existence for some reason... although I'm hoping that's one of the fluff aspects that will quietly die as time goes on, because it seems pretty silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nerdelemental Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 I don't typically laugh, even when a poster might be off. It's fun to see what easter eggs are getting picked up and what kind of speculation is afoot. Carry on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted March 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 One other thing I'm wondering is what time period Levi's visions are in - we presume it's the future, but it really could be the past too. Big Z asking where she was has to be a clue to something.... just don't know what I just hope for the love of god that book four doesn't end with Sketch in the shower having dreamt all this... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 I have literally no idea what this is about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adanedhel Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 They were Neverborn, no question There was a time when this world was full of clever people. Malifaux was home to a huge population {snip} Even amongst such a powerfull and knowledgeable culture, there were those that shined even brighter. these gifted fe possesed a genius that could realize any dream. With such singular insight and the immortaility to pursue any cause, these few grew more capable and their interests more perverse {snip} Malifaux: Bad Things Happen, page 160,161 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted March 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 Yeah, but could be humans last time (or even earlier) through the breach too. Doesn't say the people were native... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adanedhel Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 Hmm, after a certain point I guess I longer see the difference, one could say that people from the US are not Americans, since they're not what we call 'native americas', but I do believe calling people living in the USA not really americans might give you more then a few harsh words Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted March 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 ^^ I def agree on this, I think (hope) we're soon to get some clues about the origins of the Neverborn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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