Loxley Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 (edited) Evening all, so today I went to my first ever Malifaux tourney where I brought with me The Dreamer (had only played 1 game with him before, but it was fun so who cares?) Anyway, I tried to do The Dreamer Hop using the All Speed Ahead tactic from the wiki. I noticed something that I hope someone can clarify: You then activate Daydream #1 (DD1) and move forward. [+6"]DD1 then unburies LCB with Magical Extensioned Frightening Dream [+6"]DD1 then turns LCB back into the Dreamer with Calm Nightmares The problem here, according to this tactic, DD1 brings out Chompy, then turns him back to Dreamer, surely because of One Master, this can not happen as the moment LCB is unburied he MUST activate immediately? FYI this is from the Wiki page here:http://pullmyfinger.wikispaces.com/The+Dreamer Edited February 19, 2012 by Loxley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 (edited) Basically the way One Master works is like this: When either Chompy or the Dreamer comes out the MUST activate as soon as they are able to. So in this particular instance your Daydream still had activations to complete before Chompy could legally go. Since you put Chompy away before the Day Dream had completed his activations Chompy never had a chance to go. Similar Example: Perdita activates and companions Nino and Papa Loco to go with her, so they are activating simultaneously. Perdita goes first and shoots at the Dreamer who was standing all on his own. Her shot kills the Dreamer and Chompy comes out. Perdita now continues her activation and takes a further 2 shots at Chompy, who survives the onslaught. Now, at this point typically either Nino or Papa Loco would go, but because of Chompy's One Master Rule, he could now legally activate and so he breaks into the companion chain and activates. Chompy takes 2 move actions to get himself behind a tall building and out of LoS. Activations now return to the companion chain allowing Nino and Papa Loco to take their actions. Edited February 19, 2012 by Fetid Strumpet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JisaacT Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?28383-How-to-Beat-the-Dreamer-An-Anti-Tactica Here's step by step on how to do it in case you didnt see it. It say anti-dreamer on it I know but it explains exactly how to do the sling-shot so that you may counter it (or use it) effectively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loxley Posted February 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 (edited) Right I see. So when the card states "when this model is brought into play... This model activates immediately" it should actually read "this model will activate at the next available legal activation"? Surprised that this isn't on the errata *edit*had I known this at today's tourney, my games might have gone very differently, oh well, live and learn Edited February 19, 2012 by Loxley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarsnick Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) Right I see. So when the card states "when this model is brought into play... This model activates immediately" it should actually read "this model will activate at the next available legal activation"? Surprised that this isn't on the errata *edit*had I known this at today's tourney, my games might have gone very differently, oh well, live and learn Think of this question this way. A model's activation cannot be interrupted by any other activation. Period. There are few abilities that can trigger or be used when something specific happens that can stop the other model from doing something but they are all very specific when read but they are all not activations. Look at the Slow to Die skill. It says "When this model is killed, it immediately takes a 1 AP Action before being remove from play". It is not saying the model activates, it is saying it just takes a 1 AP Action but it can be done in the middle of a model's activation. Another example is Perdita's Quick Draw 0 ability. It says "...this model may take this Action to make an immediate Peacebringer Strike against a model ... declaring a ranged attack, Casting, or Charging". Again, it says you can do the action, but it's still not an activation. So your summary is true and clearer, but the rules already prevent models from activating in the middle of another model's activation. That question could be something that needs to be clarified in the sticky post in the Rules Discussion thread. Post your view as a post and they'll go over it. Edited February 20, 2012 by Sarsnick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike3838 Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 Sorry Loxley, I'd tried to post a reply to this question as you raised it on your blog post last week, but neither my phone nor my PC at work was letting me post comments. I've still got the reply in draft here, that might have helped you if you'd had it before yesterday: "You're right it's a question of range, and of protecting the Dreamer himself. The way you played it is fine, but you limit both. Your way can reach around 12", make 3 attacks and then pull Chompy back a little, but I don't think you can get the Dreamer well into cover that way. I think a clever player would probably be able to retaliate due to you still being within 12" of his crew. The more powerful version can make 2 attacks (plenty when you have Onslaught) at a 25" threat range and then disappear back to where you started, making fighting back impossible.$$ As currently worded, there's no defence against All Done, but there's rumours that Wyrd might be playtesting a change to it.$$" Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarsnick Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 As currently worded, there's no defence against All Done, but there's rumours that Wyrd might be playtesting a change to it.$$" Mike For the longest time I was playing All Done like it says in the book. It's still easy as hell to pull off with Chompy and Paired Claws. The only difference is I wouldn't attack unless I had a tome in my hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 Guess your question is answered adequately now Loxely...yes, immediate activation is badly worded. It should read "activates next", really, so you finish the current model's activation first. If you have multiple "activate immediately" effects going off, you use LIFO (last in first out) to decide who goes first; ie, the most recent occurence of "activates immediately" trumps all others. Also, there's no reason not to slingshot without a tome in your hand. The chance of not flipping a tome in 3 attacks + Onslaught attacks + soulstones is pretty slim. You just need to use your judgement as to when to trigger it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarsnick Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 Also, there's no reason not to slingshot without a tome in your hand. The chance of not flipping a tome in 3 attacks + Onslaught attacks + soulstones is pretty slim. You just need to use your judgement as to when to trigger it. It really depends when you have an "in" to deal as much damage (like Inflict Dreams) to a critical unit as possible to a 50mm base or a master when the decision to trigger the All Done is to be made. What do you think Calmdown? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 It really depends when you have an "in" to deal as much damage (like Inflict Dreams) to a critical unit as possible to a 50mm base or a master when the decision to trigger the All Done is to be made. What do you think Calmdown? Critical units arent always the ones on 50mm bases... for example, eating 2 of Kirai's Seishin on turn 1 can be quite crippling. There's very little Chompy can't kill in 3ap, with the exceptions being HtW models, models with over 1 armour and soulstone users. The only difference the model itself really makes is how many soulstones you have to burn to kill it. Inflict Dreams just helps with the tougher stuff or seals the fate of the smaller stuff. Luck plays a part, of course, but when you have two different combat triggers and paired plus soulstones and a whole hand you can burn, luck doesn't go badly too often. The decision to trigger All Done is more to do with how much you want to push your luck. It also depends if you have the BJ in your hand or if it's in your deck. Chompy sitting in the middle of your opponent's list if your All Done fails can be bad, but honestly, your opponent killing Chompy and then the Dreamer and then having to face a full companion chain of 2 Lelu 1 Lilitu + some other stuff, or 3 Stitched, can be just as game ending. Failing all done with the right strategies and schemes isn't always a loss, and often is a good tactic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarsnick Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 Critical units arent always the ones on 50mm bases... for example, eating 2 of Kirai's Seishin on turn 1 can be quite crippling. There's very little Chompy can't kill in 3ap, with the exceptions being HtW models, models with over 1 armour and soulstone users. The only difference the model itself really makes is how many soulstones you have to burn to kill it. Inflict Dreams just helps with the tougher stuff or seals the fate of the smaller stuff. Luck plays a part, of course, but when you have two different combat triggers and paired plus soulstones and a whole hand you can burn, luck doesn't go badly too often. The decision to trigger All Done is more to do with how much you want to push your luck. It also depends if you have the BJ in your hand or if it's in your deck. Chompy sitting in the middle of your opponent's list if your All Done fails can be bad, but honestly, your opponent killing Chompy and then the Dreamer and then having to face a full companion chain of 2 Lelu 1 Lilitu + some other stuff, or 3 Stitched, can be just as game ending. Failing all done with the right strategies and schemes isn't always a loss, and often is a good tactic. I was just giving an example of a critical unit when I said 50mm. I know that. Just that if I can remove a Duet or a guild robot, it usually is better. Usually I find myself popping near the master if I see they have an annoying totem like Mechanical Asst or a Primordial Magic and then making a gimmie hit on the totem so I don't have to be bothered with automatic surges or a huge hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loxley Posted February 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 Thanks for the replies guys, yeah that's answered my question and I'll know better for next time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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