ophilia vs shamus...yikes!

[justright]

So I just finished a game vs shamus..it was shared line in the sand 30ss

I picked

Ophilia

4 bayou gremlins

Pere

Rami

And 3 young lacroix

Asassinate and kill protege

He took

Shamus

Copy cat

Madame cybelle

A belle

2 punk zomies

Convict gunslinger

And chose assasinate as well

I lost this game horribly and I don't know if it was that my list just sucked or I had terrible luck ormy game choices were terrible..I did manage to kill the copy cat and a bell and 2 zombies.. my young lecroix kept the gunslinger and madame pretty busy..but I more or less used fast to much and his resilient stuff was just to hard to kill...

[Spiku]

taking assassinate was a terrible idea vs someone who can reduce your wp by 2 with boosted terrify range, and hard to wound 2. Equally kill protege is a weak choice as gremlins; claim, gather soulstones, bodyguard are all examples of ones that are far better for you. If you consider that with Ophelia vs Seamus; you are going to do weak damage unless you flip the red joker. That means you would have to hit him 3 times with double damage to kill him. Except, he can prevent damage with stones too. If you can't kill him in one activation, he will just heal up, or terrify you and be annoying; Sure you can combine rami but you're looking for best case in a hard match up. If you're shooting him, quite likely he is in a position to get belles on you. My wench plays Seamus and I play Ophelia; if she wants to troll me she takes bodyguard and steal the relic

You also only had 25 soulstones worth of models, so this would be why you lost You could have spent 5 more soulstones and still had your maximum soulstone cache of 6.

Given it was line in the sand, you should definately not have taken Pere Ravage, but Raphael instead; Seamus doesn't really care for your unresisted damage because you'd need full activations to actually kill most of his models, and he can resummon the belles anyway (as well as summon extra ones).

One of the major tricks vs hard to wound crews is just using dumb and lucky often; this is because you can garuntee you will survive the shot; though you'd have wanted a slop hauler with the crew you have set up; or 3 more bayou gremlins but definately not Pere

Who was defender, who was attacker?

EDIT: Heading to tourney, one of the other gremlin players will take over ;3

Edited February 19, 2012 by Spiku

[Mike3838]

You also only had 25 soulstones worth of models, so this would be why you lost You could have spent 5 more soulstones and still had your maximum soulstone cache of 6.

+1 This.

The Henchman hiring rules are easy to miss on a first read through the rules. Basically you add the "Henchman number" onto the game size (30 + 6 = 36) and hire up to that number, with the restriction that you can't start with a bigger SS cache than the Henchman number.

Mike

[justright]

Ahhh! I was. Under..I. totally forgot about the her cache!

And I was defender...being short 3. Three gremlins could have made the game a little different..an added slop hauler could have helped as well

[Omenbringer]

taking assassinate was a terrible idea vs someone who can reduce your wp by 2 with boosted terrify range, and hard to wound 2.

From experience Seamus falls easily with enough Bayou Gremlin shots (you dont need to hit well just often with Gremlins). Though terrifying can be difficult for Gremlins to deal with, it only really comes into play after the gremlin has completed his ranged strike (unless of course for some reason you charged him or choose to move across his melee range). Of course it is also very easily dealt with by the lowly Bayou Gremlin for 1 AP.

Against resurectionist (if playing Ophelia anyways) I generally take her with nothing but Bayou Gremlins and Young Lacroixs (at the points level you played thats up to 15 Bayou Gremlins and 3 Young Lacroixs plinking away at Seamus Wd's, even with each one failing the terrifying check after the ranged strike (if not themselves already terrifying from Deliverance) and falling back, he will either have burned through his SS cache preventing the damage or be most assuredly dead.)

Equally kill protege is a weak choice as gremlins; claim, gather soulstones, bodyguard are all examples of ones that are far better for you.

Dont agree with this (as far as Kill Protege goes), sure your opponent can just kill his own models to prevent it but if you choose a lynchpin model for his crew then it has done its job as well.

For example in the case of the list that was brought I would chose the Convict Gunslinger to force the opponent to either hide his only ranged threat (attempting to prevent me killing him) or using Drain Souls to recoup 1 SS from it's death (and preventing me 2 VPs). Either way I have succeeded in denying my opponent full use of a key model throughout the game.

If you consider that with Ophelia vs Seamus; you are going to do weak damage unless you flip the red joker. That means you would have to hit him 3 times with double damage to kill him. Except, he can prevent damage with stones too. If you can't kill him in one activation, he will just heal up, or terrify you and be annoying; Sure you can combine rami but you're looking for best case in a hard match up. If you're shooting him, quite likely he is in a position to get belles on you. My wench plays Seamus and I play Ophelia; if she wants to troll me she takes bodyguard and steal the relic

With a robust gunline (vice a kin list) against what was taken by the Seamus player, this is a much easier fight provided you stay out of melee range. Knowing that you are more than likely only going to be doing weak damage against him means that you can focus on just hitting him as often as possible vice hitting him well each time (damage prevention only goes so far against 30 shots per turn).

Additionally, the lone Belle is only going to be able to Lure at most two Gremlins a turn (and most likely not into Melee range). This will still provide more than enough ranged strikes from the Gunline to drop her (or any other threat long before they get to you).

Given it was line in the sand, you should definately not have taken Pere Ravage, but Raphael instead; Seamus doesn't really care for your unresisted damage because you'd need full activations to actually kill most of his models, and he can resummon the belles anyway (as well as summon extra ones).

Seamus can summon 1 Belle per turn (it is a 0 action and of course removes the possibility of forcing a -2Wp on the gremlins, free Charges during Pushes, or activating a Belle immediately after him). It also requires a Corpse Counter either on him or within 6" and a 10 :crows to succeed (less than 10% with cheating but with out SS).

Gremlins may need to devote whole activations to killing a model but 2-3 firing at the same target (successfully) will drop most models. Nothing can stand up to an entire gunline firing at them.

One of the major tricks vs hard to wound crews is just using dumb and lucky often; this is because you can garuntee you will survive the shot; though you'd have wanted a slop hauler with the crew you have set up; or 3 more bayou gremlins but definately not Pere

Though the above is a decent suggestion it only benefits one Kin model per turn and removes the possibility of using Like Herding Squirrels which I consider a much more effective ability (since it means that your opponents models have to kill your gremlins in one melee strike or face retaliation).

As you can tell from the above comments I prefer the "Imperial Guard" tactic of massed fire power chipping away at a target at a time and running Ophelia as a Death Star.

[Spiku]

Please excuse my misuse of Dumb and Lucky, I did in fact mean Dumb Luck. I tend to call it all dumb and lucky, including Ophelia's Calculated Luck. But on the topic, the only things in that list you are likely to squeal against are going to be the punk zombies, who will kill a bayou with a moderate; whereas Belle's are hugely unlikely to hit off the second Lure. Focus a strike instead of flurry, and your average gremlin is dead. If Ophelia for you to get your +Df off, you have activated Ophelia prior to the completion of the enemy activations; which means she is now vulnerable to pulls. I have yet to have the luxury of having line in the sand where I have firing lines and the opponent doesn't, or that they cannot advance in any direction without some form of full cover. You shouldn't be activating Ophelia before the Resers have gone if there is a risk of 18" LoS (but then you are likely striking and ducking behind companioned to Rami anyway) The 0 action to give rams will only be used on Ophelia or Rami in the first place; for the second you do of course draw Rams just under 25% of the time for the Bayou's to take themselves down to likely 1 Wd ready to be slop hauled. Melee is still a questionable buff vs that crew.

All of my suggested schemes, however, are far easier to achieve. You have a bigger ss cache + ability to drain souls 3 times in a round; killing Seamus requires you to be able to get the drop on a chap who sits behind models, and is quite happy to be pulled about himself. I still would not take assassintate vs Seamus with a wp4 (apart from hauler) living crew, when I am free to take easier or more reliable schemes that require less part on my opponent. Equally kill protege on the convict means he is relaxing behind belles ready to shoot and not be squeeled against.

Equally, he has Sybelle too so he does have access to more lures (2 Ca less total with mask required), and you have wp 4 on models as gremlins and access to a ranged fear shot

The idea of getting a hail of bullets off on Seamus honestly seems a little wishful to me; though certainly FAR easier in a crew that doesn't have the Grave Spirit. If he simply finds a corner to come around, and sends out a belle first, which pulls him to a point he can now begin his advance (this is once again going off the idea Seamus is putting himself into the firing line); he now has the ability to roll into your gunline with a 4" bubble of terrifying 14, with a 0 action to reduce the wp of all your gremlins by 2. You now only pass on a 12 flip with your crew in range of support from slop haulers and Ophelia.

As much as you have options, it is inadvisable to simply dismiss what Seamus can do, based on the comfort of getting combos off with your own crew. In a very silly scenario, which doesn't really help much at all, Seamus could do: Face of Death > Womanizer > Sybelle Companion Belle > triple (or quad if they have to move) lure on something; letting you deal with a terrifying 12 and 14 test. As much as we can imagine we will be getting off 3xrg12" shots x 6 with a delicious bit of young LaCroix overpower too, you are low wp liviing opponents.

Though had I know it was >defending< the Line in the Sand, I'd have taken the initial approach slightly differently. I could happily fight for all the reasons and options Ophelia has, but that doesn't change that Seamus is going to be strong against you even if your peppering of shots gives you way more chance of getting a Bayou Gremlin hitting for 12 damage if you are getting the shots off

[Omenbringer]

the only things in that list you are likely to squeal against are going to be the punk zombies, who will kill a bayou with a moderate; whereas Belle's are hugely unlikely to hit off the second Lure. Focus a strike instead of flurry, and your average gremlin is dead.

This is exactly the point I was making, gremlins just have to worry about hitting, the Res player has to worry about hitting well enough to insure moderate damage (i.e. the gremlin doesn't care about :-fate on the Damage flip he is only really planning on doing the 1 Damage anyway, where as the Res player needs to make sure that all his hits succeed by 6 or more to insure he can cheat to insure he can do enough damage to kill the gremlin out right). If he focuses the attack instead of Flurry so much the better since that means the Punk Zombie is done with his activation and ripe for retaliation.

If Ophelia for you to get your +Df off, you have activated Ophelia prior to the completion of the enemy activations; which means she is now vulnerable to pulls. I have yet to have the luxury of having line in the sand where I have firing lines and the opponent doesn't, or that they cannot advance in any direction without some form of full cover. You shouldn't be activating Ophelia before the Resers have gone if there is a risk of 18" LoS (but then you are likely striking and ducking behind companioned to Rami anyway)

The point of the Ophelia Deathstar is to have her safely hidden behind the wall of Bayou Gremlins that she is buffing (all of which will base block and prevent her movement toward the Rotten Belle casting Lure, Rules Manual page 35 "Movement Effects").

All of my suggested schemes, however, are far easier to achieve. You have a bigger ss cache + ability to drain souls 3 times in a round; killing Seamus requires you to be able to get the drop on a chap who sits behind models, and is quite happy to be pulled about himself. I still would not take assassintate vs Seamus with a wp4 (apart from hauler) living crew, when I am free to take easier or more reliable schemes that require less part on my opponent. Equally kill protege on the convict means he is relaxing behind belles ready to shoot and not be squeeled against.

Depending on Drain Souls to win in that crew is dangerous for a few reasons:

1. Ophelia has no way to replace models in game, meaning it is pretty much a last turn trick.
   
2. A last activation Drain Souls is entirely dependent on your opponent allowing you to have both a Leader and Significant models to Sacrifice (The Three Young Lacroixs can't be sacrificed and of course Seamus has a way to make your models Insignificant with his attacks).
   
3. If for some reason it is performed before the last turn and activation (out of necessity) your entire crew suffers a -1Wp each time you perform the action for the rest of the game (Rules Manual Page 50).
   
4. Lastly, your opponent has the same options to easily counter your Announced Gather Soulstones Scheme (especially true with Ressers facing a Gremlin Crew since they dont really have to care about Wp duels anyway (Undead Characteristic makes them immune to Morale Duels and Gremlins dont have many abilities that use Wp to resist) and can esily replace loses using your models corpse counters).

Equally, he has Sybelle too so he does have access to more lures (2 Ca less total with mask required), and you have wp 4 on models as gremlins and access to a ranged fear shot

Sybelle casting Lure is only likely to be successful 15% of the time, and against Gremlins is a waste of time when compared to the afore mentioned Shriek spell (which is successfully cast 46% of the time, inflicts both damage and a morale duel, and will require the average Gremlin to flip a 10+ to resist if she only hits the minimum CC).

The idea of getting a hail of bullets off on Seamus honestly seems a little wishful to me; though certainly FAR easier in a crew that doesn't have the Grave Spirit. If he simply finds a corner to come around, and sends out a belle first, which pulls him to a point he can now begin his advance (this is once again going off the idea Seamus is putting himself into the firing line); he now has the ability to roll into your gunline with a 4" bubble of terrifying 14, with a 0 action to reduce the wp of all your gremlins by 2. You now only pass on a 12 flip with your crew in range of support from slop haulers and Ophelia.

Not sure why the Grave Spirit would make this any more difficult (since it cant provide Armor 2 to Seamus only his Undead minions).

Anyway the Lure shenanigans you are talking about will leave Seamus exposed for an entire turn "weathering the storm" of Bullets to hopefully move into the mob and use The Face of Death to Terrify the whole group (since he moved to a corner then had a Rotten Belle pull him toward her, meaning both their activations are done). This is a pretty risky move considering every Gremlin that has range to him can shoot without having to worry about terrifying checks until he is within the requisite 4" of them.

With only the crew that was taken Seamus would have to weather 12 shots at Rg 12 from the Bayou Gremlins, 9 Shots from the Young Lacroixs at Rg 8, 3 Shots from Rami at Rg 16, 3 Shots from Pere at Rg 8 and 3 Shots from Ophelia at Rg 8-10, for a minimum of 30 Damage flips (guaranting at least 29 points of damage, assuming only weak damage flips and the Black Joker showing up) against a model with a Hard to Wound 2, Hard to Kill, Df of 4 and 12 Wds (he may be able to Use Soul Stones but not much stands against that, it is a bit of a gamble but one that definately favors the Gremlins).

Another benefit of the above is that each attack cycles at least 3 cards (realistically much more than this because of Hard to Wound), only considering the Gremlins actions, the gremlin player will shuffle his deck at least once per turn reintroducing the possibility of another Red Joker Draw (6 cards in the control hand to start, 30 for attack flips, minimum 60 for damage flips = 96 cards cycled).

As much as you have options, it is inadvisable to simply dismiss what Seamus can do, based on the comfort of getting combos off with your own crew. In a very silly scenario, which doesn't really help much at all, Seamus could do: Face of Death > Womanizer > Sybelle Companion Belle > triple (or quad if they have to move) lure on something; letting you deal with a terrifying 12 and 14 test. As much as we can imagine we will be getting off 3xrg12" shots x 6 with a delicious bit of young LaCroix overpower too, you are low wp liviing opponents.

Keep in mind I am speaking from actual play experiences, I play with and against Seamus quite a bit (he is my second favorite Crew). I am not dismissing Seamus at all (he is a strong master in general), only offering suggestions on how to deal with him while playing Gremlins. With that said...

The Ophelia Death Star isn't really a tactic predicated on combos, almost everything that benefits it is a passive ability of hers. It only really depends on her being alive and in the center of it (giving the gremlins for Df is only really necessary if their is the possibility of Melee strikes and "Oooo! A Girl!" for pulling back a gremlin that was Lured away out of a terrifying Aura so he can perform a Strike at least once without having to worry about the check).

Now to pull off the "Very Silly Scenario" which you mention (which I dont consider all that Silly as it is what his crew usually does anyway) with Seamus requires a lot of resources (AP and activations mainly though from experience the occasional Control Card as well since Lure does fail 24% of the time on the initial casting flip) and only really effects the Lured Gremlins (to get one within Seamus Terrifying is usually going to require targeting the same Gremlin multiple times with Lure). The range game favors the Gremlins against the crew that was taken.

Though had I know it was >defending< the Line in the Sand, I'd have taken the initial approach slightly differently. I could happily fight for all the reasons and options Ophelia has, but that doesn't change that Seamus is going to be strong against you even if your peppering of shots gives you way more chance of getting a Bayou Gremlin hitting for 12 damage if you are getting the shots off

Just one question, how is a Bayou Gremlin hitting for 12 Damage more than once? At best you are getting 8 via the Dumb Luck trigger on Y'all Watch This (without the Red Joker popping up which is never guaranteed), though you will sacrifice the Bayou Gremlin afterword in addition to doing 2 Dg to all models within 2".

[Spiku]

I live with someone who mains Seamus, you know I main Gremlins. I'm sure you have plenty of experience with the match up, and so do I.

There is no question of multiple 12 damages hits. I did not suggest it. More shots = more chance of the one 12 damage hit from the red joker. Unless you happen to have 16 gremlins firing. Just like there was no suggestion of sacrificing Young LaCroix. And yet in the scenario where you feel I have to look up the rules manual on how pushes work, you seem to feel that you wont be in range of significant models to sacrifice, or more to the point that someone with a cache of 2ss, and models that cost half your own, they will have better opportunity to have soulstones despite your view that the hoard of gremlins will be forcing his soulstones away. Further, given the scenario I suggested of the advance of Seamus to force the wp checks, using the high wound slow to die models infront of him, I would have the grave spirit attached to the belles, of course.

I am electing to withdraw from this exchange; I find your methods of attacking the point rather distasteful. justright, you are welcome to draw your own conclusions on the matter and I am sorry I shall be of no further assistance to you.

---------- Post added at 06:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:14 PM ----------

I live with someone who mains Seamus, you know I main Gremlins. I'm sure you have plenty of experience with the match up, and so do I.

There is no question of multiple 12 damages hits. I did not suggest it. More shots = more chance of the one 12 damage hit from the red joker. Unless you happen to have 16 gremlins firing. Just like there was no suggestion of sacrificing Young LaCroix. And yet in the scenario where you feel I have to look up the rules manual on how pushes work, you seem to feel that you wont be in range of significant models to sacrifice, or more to the point that someone with a cache of 2ss, and models that cost half your own, they will have better opportunity to have soulstones despite your view that the hoard of gremlins will be forcing his soulstones away. Further, given the scenario I suggested of the advance of Seamus to force the wp checks, using the high wound slow to die models infront of him, I would have the grave spirit attached to the belles, of course.

I am electing to withdraw from this exchange; I find your methods of attacking the point rather distasteful. justright, you are welcome to draw your own conclusions on the matter and I am sorry I shall be of no further assistance to you.

[Omenbringer]

I am electing to withdraw from this exchange; I find your methods of attacking the point rather distasteful. justright, you are welcome to draw your own conclusions on the matter and I am sorry I shall be of no further assistance to you.

I am sorry if you are finding offense where none is intended.

What you call "attacking the point" is a normal part of any tactics discussion (whether it be in a game such as this or in real life combat). The overall goal is to pick everything apart in order to develop the best most reliable and repeatable course of action for the problem presented prior to actually facing it. Until a problem has been completely analyzed/ diagnosed this way, coming up with a viable solution is haphazard at best.

The reason I form my posts the way I do (aside from the fact that I tend to write like an encyclopedia reads), is for other players (of varying skill levels and familiarity with the game) that frequently peruse these threads looking for information (whether in regrads to the original topic or prior to deciding on a new Crew). I include a lot of the extra stuff (such as references, success rates, rules interpretation, etc) for their benefit, if it was a discussion between just me and you in a PM then a lot of the other stuff could be left out).

Once again no offense is intended in my responses.