Slaughter, Showgirls, and Replacement.

[Todd]

Hello Everyone! Long time lurker, but this is my first post.

Tried a quick search, and couldn't find any satisfactory info on this. I actually have a few related questions, but since they mostly hinge around the Slaughter Strategy, I'll go ahead and get that out of the way first.

Slaughter

"Models with no Soulstone cost who enter play by replacing another model(s) are worth the Soulstone cost of the model(s) they replaced."

Is this specifically referencing the Replace mechanic, or is this simply meant to indicate any effect/situation that removes a model from the game and directly cause another to come into play? Just to be clear, the replacement terms in the rules manual do not appear in bold text (I did that).

Related Questions:

1. If you use Colette's Mannequin Replacement trigger after targeting your own Performer with Disappearing Act, how many Soul Stones is the newly summoned Mannequin worth to your opponent in the Slaughter Strategy?

A) 6 SS-The Mannequin has replaced the Performer whose listed SS cost is 6.

0 SS- The Mannequin was summoned (not replaced), but has no listed SS cost. The Slaughter Strategy does not take this into account.

C) Its Complicated- The Performers SS cost was tied to that of its Mannequin due to Dresser (see question 2). Perhaps neither Mannequin would be worth anything now?

2. Regarding Dresser, do both a Mannequin and a Performer have to be killed to yield SS in Slaughter? If You sacrifice/kill one model yourself, do you deny your opponent the pair's SS cost even if they kill the other?

3. When using Dance Together, technically only one of the Coryphee is replaced (the other is sacrificed). The Coryphee Duet has no listed SS cost. Wouldn't it only be worth 7 SS to an opponent who kills it in Slaughter? I'm certain that I've seen discussion of the Duet yielding 14 SS, but the RAW doesn't seem to support that (again, it would depend on the usage of replace in the Slaughter rules).

[pixelante]

Mannequins don't have a value, but do you need to get both the Mannequin and the Performer to claim the 6ss?

As for your last question the Duet is worth 14ss.

[Todd]

Mannequins don't have a value, but do you need to get both the Mannequin and the Performer to claim the 6ss?

?

From the Performer's card:

Dresser: The listed Soulstone cost is for this model and one Mannequin.

As for your last question the Duet is worth 14ss.

If that's the case, "replace" must not mean "Replace" in Slaughter.

[Kadeton]

If you took a Performer and Mannequin in your starting crew, the Performer would be worth 6SS when killed by your opponent, and the Mannequin would be worth 0SS - these are the listed costs on their cards. Dresser simply gives you a way to hire a Mannequin in your crew, since all no-cost minions have to have special hiring rules.

And yes, "replace" does not seem to mean Replace in the Slaughter rules. Any way in which a no-cost model can be brought into play by removing other models from the game seems to be covered by it. The Duet is definitely valued at 14SS. Similarly, the Mannequin that you created by using Mannequin Replacement on your own Performer is worth 6SS, because that's the listed cost on the card of the model it replaced (not Replaced).

No idea why you would ever burn a Soulstone to turn one of your incredibly useful Performers into a Mannequin, though.

[Todd]

If you took a Performer and Mannequin in your starting crew, the Performer would be worth 6SS when killed by your opponent, and the Mannequin would be worth 0SS - these are the listed costs on their cards. Dresser simply gives you a way to hire a Mannequin in your crew, since all no-cost minions have to have special hiring rules.

Ah, I get it now.

Dresser could probably have been worded a little better. Slaughter is looking for a SS cost, and Dresser basically says the SS cost includes two separate models (not, buy one get one free).

After my original post I noticed that Summoned is capitalized, but replaced is not. Makes sense now. Good job Wyrd.

No idea why you would ever burn a Soulstone to turn one of your incredibly useful Performers into a Mannequin, though.

That's funny, I always feel like the most useful thing the the Performer does is bring a Mannequin with it. Though, I'm still working my way through the crew, getting the hang of it one model at a time.

SS denial without losing model count (though, I see how that won't work now). Multiple Companion groups is very nice. I tend to keep the Mannequin linked to Colette. There are times when Cassandra and the Coryphees are out of Companion range when I really wish they weren't. Replacing the Performer gets you two Mannequins for 8 SS. Not bad, depending on what you're trying to achieve.

[Q'iq'el]

No idea why you would ever burn a Soulstone to turn one of your incredibly useful Performers into a Mannequin, though.

This is actually quite an intriguing problem. if you pull off Colette's trigger and create a Mannequin out of opponent's model, is the new Mannequin worth the SS cost of that model?

That could create some pretty valuable Mannequins...

[Kadeton]

That's funny, I always feel like the most useful thing the the Performer does is bring a Mannequin with it. Though, I'm still working my way through the crew, getting the hang of it one model at a time.

The main thing the Performer does for me is just to hang around and make Cassandra into an unstoppable killing machine. Using Understudy to cast Seduction or Siren Call with a Soulstone is giant heaps of win. That said, using Understudy to cast Mirrors can also be very nice.

Other than that they're not great for much, I'll admit (unless someone gets Paralysed, then they're basically certain death). I'll often end up putting them in a position to die so that the Duet can Reactivate, though.

This is actually quite an intriguing problem. if you pull off Colette's trigger and create a Mannequin out of opponent's model, is the new Mannequin worth the SS cost of that model?

That could create some pretty valuable Mannequins...

It could indeed. Although it's worth noting that you've already secured the SS points for sacrificing the opponent's model, so the best they can do by killing the Mannequin is equalising. If they fail to kill it quickly enough, you can just sacrifice it yourself for the denial.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Kadeton

[Serigala]

Slaughter

"Models with no Soulstone cost who enter play by replacing another model(s) are worth the Soulstone cost of the model(s) they replaced."

Is this specifically referencing the Replace mechanic, or is this simply meant to indicate any effect/situation that removes a model from the game and directly cause another to come into play? Just to be clear, the replacement terms in the rules manual do not appear in bold text (I did that).

We've always played that the Coryphee doesn't yield any ss at all in slaughter, once they dance together.

Have we been playing it wrong all this time?

[Wolfgar]

How I would play it:

Killing a Performer is worth 6SS. Killing the Mannequin she started with is worth 0SS. You only have to kill the Performer, not both.

Killing the Duet should count as killing the original Coryphee together, so 14SS total.

[Todd]

This is actually quite an intriguing problem. if you pull off Colette's trigger and create a Mannequin out of opponent's model, is the new Mannequin worth the SS cost of that model?

That could create some pretty valuable Mannequins...

I don't see why the new Mannequin wouldn't be worth the SS cost of the replaced model. Slaughter is pretty clear about models without Soulstone costs. That is, unless replace does mean Replace. That leads to other problems (7 SS Duets, no guidelines for the SS value of Summoned and Placed models without printed SS costs).

I was just looking over some of the Ressurectionists statcards and noticed the Empty Vessel rule on Nicodem and the Mindless Zombies. Way worse than the Mannequin situation. You could end up with 3 really valuable models (and probably will, as most 50mm models aren't cheap).

Funny thing about the mindless zombies, they have a SS cost of S (not P), but their signature means of entering play is a place effect.

I don't have any of the books myself. Can anyone find any other disproportionately valuable models created by the Slaughter rules?

Edited January 2, 2012 by Todd

[Kadeton]

The Mindless Zombies aren't really a problem, because they don't belong to a crew (Neutral) and therefore don't count for Slaughter.

[Todd]

Darn, that's what I get for skimming. Thought I found something interesting. Oh, well.

[Q'iq'el]

I don't see why the new Mannequin wouldn't be worth the SS cost of the replaced model. Slaughter is pretty clear about models without Soulstone costs. That is, unless replace does mean Replace. That leads to other problems (7 SS Duets, no guidelines for the SS value of Summoned and Placed models without printed SS costs).

I don't see it as a problem rules-wise.

I see it as a serious hurdle though. Kind of the inconsistency that gets hard to track, causes mistakes, costs people games and generally isn't necessary.

A Mannequin brought by a Performer is worth 0SS.

One created from Terror Tot is worth 3SS.

One created from expensive 50mm model can cost anywhere between 10 and 13SS...

One more thing to track. Nothing big, but it adds up.

And there are further complications. Colette vs. Colette math could run crazy... a Mannequin created from opponent's Duet - 14SS... make a Mannequin out of that Mannequin... is it worth 14SS because that was the temporary value of the Mannequin replaced, or is it worth 0SS because it is nominal value of such a Mannequin?

Malifaux rules are complex and fun. There are areas they simply don't have to be that complex.

[Kadeton]

Darn, that's what I get for skimming. Thought I found something interesting. Oh, well.

Well, there could still potentially be an interesting situation if one of the valuable Mindless Zombies was killed or sacrificed and replaced by a model without a Soulstone cost. Offhand I can't think of any situations where that would occur, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

[Todd]

The Mindless Zombies aren't really a problem, because they don't belong to a crew (Neutral) and therefore don't count for Slaughter.

Ok, here we go.

Slaughter is looking for Killed/Sacrificed enemy models (doesn't necessarily matter if its part of your Crew). A Mindless Zombie is an enemy model while currently under another Crew's control (Mindless, or Nicodem using Zombie Control), or brought into play by an enemy model (opponent controlled Mindess Zombie, or opponent's Nicodem using Empty Vessel) and currently under that Crew's control (Mindless, or Nicodem using Zombie Control).

If MZ's were somehow killed during their own activations (not likely, but possible), they would yield SS to their controller's opponent equal to the specific model(s) they replaced. There's some book keeping for you.

I know, its a stretch. Its late and I'm bored.

[Kadeton]

If MZ's were somehow killed during their own activations (not likely, but possible), they would yield SS to their controller's opponent equal to the specific model(s) they replaced. There's some book keeping for you.

Hah! Nice catch. I can't see anything wrong with that.

[Q'iq'el]

If MZ's were somehow killed during their own activations (not likely, but possible), they would yield SS to their controller's opponent equal to the specific model(s) they replaced. There's some book keeping for you.

I know, its a stretch. Its late and I'm bored.

I'm not sure that would be the case.

They are being moved according to their own special rule - technically they still don't have controller. They merely have to be moved by both of the players alternating their activations.

They move towards the nearest target and attack it and the player who executes the action has no control over it either.

I think the only exception, where you're catch would probably work, would be when such a Zombie gets killed while Nicodem is controlling it, as that specifically overrides Mindless in this aspect.

[Todd]

I'm not sure that would be the case.

They are being moved according to their own special rule - technically they still don't have controller. They merely have to be moved by both of the players alternating their activations.

They move towards the nearest target and attack it and the player who executes the action has no control over it either.

I don't know, maybe its been ruled otherwise, but Mindless seems to imply the model is uncontrolled, except during its activation.

From Mindless:

"Players, in activation order, activate and control 1 Mindless Zombie at the end of the Activation Phase."

"If there is more than one model in melee range, the controlling player chooses which model the Strike is against."

Obviously, you are very limited in what they can do with that control. Other than choosing between targets in melee range, the player really doesn't have any influence on what the model does. Without changing much, the rule could probably have been written in a way that leaves out any player involvement/control, but achieves the same thing.

For example, "Players, in activation order, nominate 1 Mindless Zombie to activate at the end of the Activation Phase...(insert rest of rule here)...If there is more than one model in melee range, the nominating player chooses which model the Strike is against."

That would achieve what you are describing in your post Q'iq'el, and remove any ambiguity as to whether they are controlled by a player during Mindless.