Reclaim Malifaux and Lilith's Forest

[Glint-Eye]

In a recent game I saw, one player was playing Neverborn and had Lilith as their master and Reclaim Malifaux as one of their schemes. However, they had mis-measured one table square and it occurred to them that it had no piece of terrain completely within it. They contemplated how they could get the last square reclaimed, but then cast Illusionary Forest and used that as the terrain piece that they reclaimed.

This seemed legitimate enough, as the reclaiming model and the terrain were both completely within the square, but I wondered could this tactic be used more than once. Put another way, the RAW doesn't specify that the terrain has to remain there once the counter is placed, nor for the square to remain claimed, so could you recast Illusionary Forest and claim another square in a similar method?

Forgive me if this question has already been asked, but I couldn’t find a previous answer.

[Cats Laughing]

FWIW, I would let you do that. I think it's an interesting use of her abilities. Given that (iirc) reclaim Malifaux needs to be declared, and your opponent can guess which corners don't have "reclaimable" terrain, he should be able to see this coming and prepare a response.

My two cents anyway.

[Stern]

perfectly legit in my eyes

... but again, tables really should have a terrain element in every section, otherwise this scheme is impossible to some players

[Q'iq'el]

I don't have the book with me right now, but don't you check for the reclaimed terrain at the end of the Encounter? (i.e. the markers are only to tag the reclaimed terrain.)

In such case re-casting the Illusionary Forest into any other quarter would mean there's no re-claimed terrain at its previous location.

[Sliver Chocobo]

Also what about the forests her avatar make?

[Q'iq'el]

More or less same, I think.

They create terrain, her crew can interact with it - not just for reclamation purposes, though I don't think you can note down terrain which is not on the table at the beginning of the game for the purpose of Strategies and schemes that may require it.

The problem with Illusionary forest is that it disappears when she or her totem casts the spell. One it goes away, any new forest she creates with her spell is a completely new piece of terrain, so I feel old marker doesn't apply to it anymore.

[Headcase2]

From memory, since I don't have my RM on me - I don't think this is correct: Reclaim Malifaux talks about terrain pieces, and unlike Raspy's Ice Pillars an Illusionary Forest counts as a spell effect, rather than a terrain piece.

[Q'iq'el]

From memory, since I don't have my RM on me - I don't think this is correct: Reclaim Malifaux talks about terrain pieces, and unlike Raspy's Ice Pillars an Illusionary Forest counts as a spell effect, rather than a terrain piece.

Can't say with certitude about Avatar's forests for the same reason (no Book 3 around right now), but as far as the Illusionary Forest goes this is definitely not true.

Illusionary Forest is defined as terrain in the wording of the spell. It just has some extra rules normal terrain wouldn't have (Nephilim can ignore movement penalties etc.).

[Sliver Chocobo]

They are classed as terrain

[Glint-Eye]

More or less same, I think.

They create terrain, her crew can interact with it - not just for reclamation purposes, though I don't think you can note down terrain which is not on the table at the beginning of the game for the purpose of Strategies and schemes that may require it.

The problem with Illusionary forest is that it disappears when she or her totem casts the spell. One it goes away, any new forest she creates with her spell is a completely new piece of terrain, so I feel old marker doesn't apply to it anymore.

Um, Reclaim Malifaux doesn't require you to mark a piece of terrain, unlike a scheme like Stake a Claim or Sabotage. I'm thinking that so long as you don't cast Illusionary Forest again, you could at least claim one square.

Edit:

Upon further examination of the wording, while the first part mentions the piece of terrain, the last few sentences, as well as the VP conditions seem to hint that the square is being reclaimed and not the terrain and that the terrain and the counter seem to be a mnemonic device (as well as a flavorful mechanic). This leads me to think that you could claim multiple sections with this trick, just food for thought.

Edited November 17, 2011 by Glint-Eye

[Q'iq'el]

I disagree.

There's no requirement in Malifaux, per-se, for the terrain to be present to interact with the table. You can see it in Power Ritual for example.

Reclaim Malifaux tells the Neverborn player to interact with the terrain and to "Place a Token on the terrain feature to indicate it has been Reclaimed" (page 104).

To me it is pretty clear that "Reclaiming Malifaux" means Reclaiming terrain, not table quarters. What Table quarters are needed to is terrain placement - you need at least 9 terrain pieces each placed completely within its quarter to be able to reclaim them and complete the Scheme.

It's true that victory conditions speak about table sections, but the wording of the Scheme makes it clear the sections are reclaimed by reclaiming terrain. It's not just mnemonic device - it's a clearly described procedure being specific enough to instruct you to leave the mark on the top of the terrain's base.

All in all, it's a non-stellar scheme to begin with. The mere structure of the table may easily make it impossible to complete. When you build the table with your opponent, he can easily prevent some pieces of terrain from meeting the requirements and if it is a pre-built table, it may not meet any of those from the start.

If you are the one building the table, you may place the terrain correctly - it won't betray anything, because you must announce the scheme anyway, but it may cause some concern that the terrain is set up for making your Schemes work better, which actually is the most grievous issue with the Scheme.