Firing into Melee

[Keegantir]

When firing into melee, if the model that is selected for the attack is 1) out of LoS or 2) out of range, does the attack hit or miss?

I searched for this for over an hour and while some hit on it, like http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=26503&highlight=firing+melee and http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=13644&highlight=firing+melee&page=4 , none of them expressly answer the question by a marshal. If this has been resolved than searches for (firing melee), (shooting melee), and (Ranged Strike Melee) did not turn up an answer.

I am of the opinion that RAI you still hit them but RAW for firing into melee is a bit different. RAW, you declare the target (no range check is made here, which means that you could do this to models on the other side of the board, but to declare the target you must have LoS, so there is a LoS check), flip cards to see who becomes the new target, then you resolve the rest of the attack as normal (this is where you would check for range, but I do not believe you would check for LoS, because that already happened on the initial declare, though even that is a bit iffy).

Thank you for taking the time to answer.

[Fading Memory]

You still hit the model if it is not in sight or out of range. I don't have my rule book handy or I would quote it.

The reason for flipping to see who you hit is because its hard to hit your target if its fighting someone else. Think of it like this, the models engaged are constantly moving so at some point the model that is not in sight at some point will be and that's when it gets hit.

[Keegantir]

While that fits what I agree with for RAI, it does not fit RAW. If that is the intention than the rulebook may need a slight errata.

To quote the rulebook:

(P.44)

Firing Into Melee

The attacker declares the target of the ranged attack, and then flips one fate card for the target and each model in the targets melee range as well as any enemy model engaged with the target, regardless of LoS to those models. Flip two fate cards for models with a Ht of 3 or more. The model with the lowest value card becomes the new target of the attack. In the case of models tied for the lowest card, the attacking model may choose its target from those tied models.

Resolve the ranged attack as normal. The target receives +1 Df ... for each enemy model it is engaged with.

and (P.42)

Declare Target, then Check Range

A model must be within the attacker's LoS to be declared the target of a Strike. If there are no targets within the attacker's LoS, the Strike fails. A model cannot target itself with a Strike.

Once a target in LoS has been declared the target of the Strike, ensure that the target is in range by measuring the distance between the two models.

So, by the rules as written, declaring the target and checking range are separate steps. Thus, you declare a target, this requires checking LoS but not range. In a normal ranged attack you would then check range, but firing into melee interrupts this process after declaring the target, but before measuring for range. You then flip cards to see who is the new target. After that you resolve the ranged attack as normal. At that point you would go back to where you broke the ranged attack chain, with the next step being measuring range.

[daemonkin]

Does that then mean that if a HT1 enemy model is behind a HT2 friendly model (from the firing model's perspective) then the firer cannot legally declare it a target and could also potentially be out of range according to RAW?

D.

PS Never thought we would have to use RAW and RAI in a non-GW game.

[Kadeton]

So, by the rules as written, declaring the target and checking range are separate steps. Thus, you declare a target, this requires checking LoS but not range. In a normal ranged attack you would then check range, but firing into melee interrupts this process after declaring the target, but before measuring for range. You then flip cards to see who is the new target. After that you resolve the ranged attack as normal. At that point you would go back to where you broke the ranged attack chain, with the next step being measuring range.

So by the RAW, LoS doesn't matter but Range does? You declare your target (this is where you check LoS), then randomise the target between engaged models, then check range (but NOT LoS). If the randomised target was out of range of the attack it would fail, but LoS doesn't matter at that point.

That's my reading anyway, feel free to correct my logic.

[Headcase2]

You're right, and the way I see it there's no RAW/RAI conflict here. Declare intended target - check LoS to intended target - randomize target - check range to actual target - procede to attack duel only if actual target is in range.

[Clement]

Does that then mean that if a HT1 enemy model is behind a HT2 friendly model (from the firing model's perspective) then the firer cannot legally declare it a target and could also potentially be out of range according to RAW?

D.

PS Never thought we would have to use RAW and RAI in a non-GW game.

If I'm reading that right... the firing model has no LoS to the HT1 enemy model anyway, and could not be declared a target in the first place. This assumes there's no clear line at all between the firing model and the enemy ht1 model. There's a diagram on page 16 of the RM.