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Ramos V Colette, Tactics help?


ratch
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ok so i am a Ramos player and my opponent is a Colette player. first off i have realized we have been playing the game wrong due to mis interpretation of the rules. mainly just setting up for the encounter and hiring. we only have one crew. i thought the Cache was was added to the max and that was your pool for the game. i didn't realise that each model "Cost" 1 SS to throw in your list. anyways on to the actual issue.

So i play Ramos and i frequently loose to Colette. we dont really play the actual encounter set up. we both just do Assassination since thats what we are used to doing as War Machine Players. now you have the grasp of how we play(i will be committing the encounter setup) here is our scurrent lists.

Arcanists Crew - 30 - Scrap

Ramos
--
2 Cache

Brass Arachnid [2ss]

  • Steamborg Executioner
    [10ss]

  • Steampunk Arachnid
    [3ss]

  • Steampunk Arachnid Swarm
    [9ss]

  • Steampunk Arachnid
    [3ss]

  • Steampunk Arachnid
    [3ss]

Arcanists Crew - 30 - Scrap

Colette Du Bois
--
4 Cache

  • Cassandra, Magician's Apprentice
    [9ss]

  • Coryphée
    [7ss]

  • Performer & Mannequin
    [6ss]

  • Coryphée
    [7ss]

now i am adding Alyce. i have 3 "Swarms" 2 are Swarmed, and 1 is spiders. i have 1 more Swarm to make into Spiders. i also have the Creation as well, these items he is picking up in madison this week during a game con.

So against this list what kind of tactics can i perform. he likes to combine his Coryphees into the Duet. he will link the Mannequin to cassandra. his performer is kinda neglected for the most part, favoring his Duet, Cassandra and Colette herself.

now i used to just sit ramos in the back and make babies. now i move him in so i can support my Constructs with Arching Screne or blow up a spider to heal the Borg or to dg something.then make a new spider xD i try to only Stoke if i can cheat it to succeed. otherwise i move and have Arching Screen going. that way the Cloud on the borg and the Screnes give me a good defense. when i remember and don't fail at moves i will use latch on to drop the coryphee or cassandras df.

what are some general tactics or changes i could make to have more capabilities against Colette? i intend on getting 2 LSA, atleast 1 Gunsmith, and 2 SS Miners.

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to add more to the The information. i intend on running a Special Forces heavy list, Ramos is not limited to only 2 special Forces, once the Gunsmith, LSAs and SS Miners hit the markets ill be purchasing them. i will probly get a Kaeris Box, it will have 2 Gunsmiths, and i think the SS Miners, so there is no reason not to. ill have a second Master and the models i want =] if you havn't guessed i like the Construct aspect of the Game. What Guild Constructs can Ramos field? i read somewhere where he can field some Gild Constructs. if they are useful i may pick them up to expand my options...

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we both just do Assassination since thats what we are used to doing as War Machine Players.

Well, right there is your biggest problem. I can tell you right now that you are, in fact, limiting yourself quiiiiite a bit by doing this. Malifaux is definitely not just a slug-it-out fight. In fact, for many crews, this is the absolute worst thing you could pick. Try the game out with a couple different strategies and schemes, you'll find that the gameplay changes considerably.

And I do mean that this is a huge change.

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phew boy, you've set yourself up quite a pickle on this one.

Firstly, let me say that this game is not really balanced at all for an assassination mindset. and your using a list that would be very bad at it against an army that is very good at it. If you want to start winning some games I highly suggest you try to get your opponent to start playing strategies with you.

Fighting fire with fire is fun, so you can buy yourself a coryphee blister and use the duet yourself, with the brass arachnid you can give it reactivate and let it run wild. Also, the mobile toolkit from book two gives ramos the ability to cast some of his spells a bit easier, I know alot of people use that over the arachnid.

Gunsmiths will help alot as well.

If you guys try to interject some strategies and perhaps think of adding the toolkit and duet to what you already plan on buying, I think you will see the results of the games shift a bit less lopsided for colette.

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i plan on getting Coryphees, i think they would be great Against a Dreamer Alps bomb list. the (+) to Df and Wp defense flips is really nice. the sheer movment capabilities would be pro as well. i could take out his Alps fast. so they are definate future additions in case i play the Alps Bomb and i may throw them in occaisionally if i need movement for my objectives.

i don't like trying to play a Strat involving the BA because a CC of 16 is stupid hard when your CA is 5Tomes. i literally need a 10Tomes to successfully cast the ability. as cool as it is and the fact i can potentially get it off a few times is cool. but unless i am holding the 10 of Tomes in my hand plus what i need for the rest of the Strat. not including cheating so i can beat my opponent. Toolkit may be part of my next Malifaux order.

EDIT: I am currently reading Book 2 Encounter rules so i can get them commited and be able to play the game correctly. we also hire completely wrong. a SS Pool of 10 and 11 i believe is very inaccurate. When Hiring its 1SS per model Correct? excluding masters.

Edited by ratch
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Yeah, I would definitely suggest playing with the proper strategies and schemes as laid out in the Rules Manual. Malifaux is definitely NOT War Machine, and Ramos in particular is not very good at killing enemy Masters, especially not one as tough to kill as Colette.

Utilize your Steamborg Executioner to try and take out the Coryphee Duet. It will still be tough, but if you can win initiative, and attack the Duet before it has a chance to activate and gain Use Soulstone, then you'll be in good shape.

Also, remember that Ramos' Electrical Fire spell ignores Armor, and technically, the Coryphee's Bulletproof ability simply grants Armor against ranged attacks. So Electrical Fire will ignore that as well. Make sure to keep your spiders in Swarm mode, and not as individual arachnids, as they'll be a lot easier for the Coryphee to just pick off if they are by themselves at only 3 Wds each.

Do you have just the box set right now? Definitely suggest getting enough extra pieces to utilize Ramos' Create Spider and Summon Electrical Creation spells. One of Ramos' key strategies is in summoning more Spiders to the playing field early on.

Lastly, if you need more ideas, check out the Malifaux wiki. :)

http://pullmyfinger.wikispaces.com/home

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i plan on getting Coryphees, i think they would be great Against a Dreamer Alps bomb list. the (+) to Df and Wp defense flips is really nice. the sheer movment capabilities would be pro as well. i could take out his Alps fast. so they are definate future additions in case i play the Alps Bomb and i may throw them in occaisionally if i need movement for my objectives.

i don't like trying to play a Strat involving the BA because a CC of 16 is stupid hard when your CA is 5Tomes. i literally need a 10Tomes to successfully cast the ability. as cool as it is and the fact i can potentially get it off a few times is cool. but unless i am holding the 10 of Tomes in my hand plus what i need for the rest of the Strat. not including cheating so i can beat my opponent. Toolkit may be part of my next Malifaux order.

EDIT: I am currently reading Book 2 Encounter rules so i can get them commited and be able to play the game correctly. we also hire completely wrong. a SS Pool of 10 and 11 i believe is very inaccurate. When Hiring its 1SS per model Correct? excluding masters.

You don't get any bonus SS for the pieces in your crew. If you have been playing against a Dreamer crew (which maybe you have, since you mention Alps), his crew works slightly different and he does allow you to have 1 SS per Nightmare model you hire, up to 5 SS total. But that's a special rule for the Dreamer only.

The Crew builder lists you have in your first posts correctly list the SS pools for each of your crews. Ramos should have a pool of 2 SS, and Colette should have 4. It's the Master's Cache, plus however many SS are left over from building your crew.

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When Hiring its 1SS per model Correct? excluding masters.

Oh, no, no, no. Each model costs a certain number of soulstones that is written on the card. You subtract that from the point value you're playing (ie: a 25 ss game, a 35 ss game, etc). Any leftover points are added to your master's cache to determine how many soulstones you have for use while playing.

An example:

In a 25 SS game, a list I wold take would be:

Colette

Cassandra - costs 9

Performer - costs 6

Performer - costs 6

Mechanical Dove - costs 2

This leaves me with 2 soulstones left over which is added to Colette's cache of 3, giving me 5 soulstones to play with during the game.

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Yeah, I would definitely suggest playing with the proper strategies and schemes as laid out in the Rules Manual. Malifaux is definitely NOT War Machine, and Ramos in particular is not very good at killing enemy Masters, especially not one as tough to kill as Colette.

Utilize your Steamborg Executioner to try and take out the Coryphee Duet. It will still be tough, but if you can win initiative, and attack the Duet before it has a chance to activate and gain Use Soulstone, then you'll be in good shape.

Also, remember that Ramos' Electrical Fire spell ignores Armor, and technically, the Coryphee's Bulletproof ability simply grants Armor against ranged attacks. So Electrical Fire will ignore that as well. Make sure to keep your spiders in Swarm mode, and not as individual arachnids, as they'll be a lot easier for the Coryphee to just pick off if they are by themselves at only 3 Wds each.

Do you have just the box set right now? Definitely suggest getting enough extra pieces to utilize Ramos' Create Spider and Summon Electrical Creation spells. One of Ramos' key strategies is in summoning more Spiders to the playing field early on.

Lastly, if you need more ideas, check out the Malifaux wiki. :)

http://pullmyfinger.wikispaces.com/home

You don't get any bonus SS for the pieces in your crew. If you have been playing against a Dreamer crew (which maybe you have, since you mention Alps), his crew works slightly different and he does allow you to have 1 SS per Nightmare model you hire, up to 5 SS total. But that's a special rule for the Dreamer only.

The Crew builder lists you have in your first posts correctly list the SS pools for each of your crews. Ramos should have a pool of 2 SS, and Colette should have 4. It's the Master's Cache, plus however many SS are left over from building your crew.

i realized yesturday we were incorrectly calculating SS Pool. when i started playing witht he crew builder on Malifaux.com

i have Ramos Box + BA + xtra swarm. i have on order 1 more swarm Rusty Alyce and the Creation model. i have been proxying the Creation with my Khador War Dog xD out of the 3 swarms i have 1 of them is individual spiders other 2 are swarmed. the new swarm i get in the mail will be individual spiders. i will be getting the newer book 3 items once i can. mainly the LSA, SS Miners, and Gunsmiths. i believe i saw somewhere that Kaeris has the Gunsmiths and Fire Gamin. so i intend on getting her box, that way i have a different master to mix things up a bit. after that is the miners and LSAs. might grab an Essence of Power to link to Kaeris. anyways, i am reading the pdf for Book two so i understand what is SUPPOSED to be done. after i am done with the encounters section i will post further questions here xD

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I highly recommend downloading the PDF for the Rules Manual (link on the left of the forums here), and use that, rather than Book 2. The Rules Manual has some things that have been slightly updated since Book 2, and so the Rules Manual is currently THE official ruleset for Malifaux.

actually thats what i have. i DLed the Rules Manual Flat from Malifaux.com and i have the flat at home from here.

i understand the hiring system now. i was trying to apply the max starting pool as a basis for the hiring. essentially making it 2 numbers that track crew sizes. now that i have read more and understand that the maximum SS is only whats left over from Crew size and the cache. in other words unless your doing it on purpose your generally going to have 1-2 over your Master's Cache. i generally try to be as close to the crew isze as possible so my Pool will generally be Master Cache xD i also don't use SS very often, my master is the only model capable of using SS and since i am not in combat i am not needing to use SS.

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Some food for thought.

this is my potential list onc ethe new models come out is as follows...

Arcanists Crew - 35 - Scrap

Ramos
--
4 Pool

  • Gunsmith
    [6ss]

  • Large Steampunk Arachnid
    [5ss]

  • Soulstone Miner
    [6ss]

  • Rusty Alyce
    [10ss]

  • Soulstone Miner
    [6ss]

now after looking at this, i have a Special Forces list. leavign the remaining 2SS for Avatar or BA. i don't actually like Rusty Alyce, i am looking at her V2 card and she will have next to no synergy. i would rather go without reactivate if it means saving my models. the idea of loosing all but 1 wd is very not what i want. if i used the Swarm tricks it wouldnt be bad. Reactivate on a Spider, they end up swarming so my 9hp swarm comes into play with 2wd i am cool with that. but with my new list Rusty alyce is an expensive model with no synergy. so i want to change up the list and go with the Renegade Steamfitter Johan. he will be really nice. since every model would then be M&SU Assets he would always get his +2Cb so long as he is within 3" of my models. so with that said heres the new list.

Arcanists Crew - 35 - Scrap

Ramos
--
2 Pool

  • Gunsmith
    [6ss]

  • Gunsmith
    [6ss]

  • Large Steampunk Arachnid
    [5ss]

  • Soulstone Miner
    [6ss]

  • Renegade Steamfitter Johan
    [6ss]

  • Soulstone Miner
    [6ss]

i went 2 Gunsmiths since i am a little shy on ranged. Johan is a hybrid but more melee, so having another shooty in a melee heavy list will give me a decent balance. i considered 2 LSAs but 1 is fine for now. once the Union Miner comes out i may run a duet of them with BA and Avatar; or trips.

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I'm not sure about what ramos can do, but as a colette player I know what can hurt me. One thing you should try to bring is models with the ability to paralyze as it cancels out colette's whole "slow to die + healing flip immortality" thing.

Another thing to consider would be anything with instant kill triggers which require the discarding of soulstones. Colette really doesn't like having to burn through her stones or control cards.

Also, an effect which hurts her is poison. If she's already almost dead, poison can pretty much promise you a stone burned every time she tries to activate.

The other option is to ignore her entirely and smack her girls around as she relies fairly heavily on them to get around and out of trouble.

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i don't actually like Rusty Alyce, i am looking at her V2 card and she will have next to no synergy. i would rather go without reactivate if it means saving my models. the idea of loosing all but 1 wd is very not what i want. if i used the Swarm tricks it wouldnt be bad. Reactivate on a Spider, they end up swarming so my 9hp swarm comes into play with 2wd i am cool with that. but with my new list Rusty alyce is an expensive model with no synergy.

Be careful about this. ALL effects on a model transfer over when you do a 'Replace' action, which is what happens when you Swarm Together. So, if you cast Burn Out on an individual Spider, and then it Swarms Together during that same turn, then the effect would still transfer over to the Swarm, and it would be knocked down to 1 Wd during the Closing Phase.

Burn Out is a pretty situational ability for me. I don't use it all THAT often. The real key with Alyce though, is that she gets to utilize Ramos' 8 :tomes Ca if she wants to. So you can cast Burn Out, Rust or the Steampunk Abomination summoning spells with ease with her. Rust is particularly good, because then you have BOTH Rust and Ramos' Electrical Fire spells which can be cast starting at an 8, and they ignore Armor. So very good against armored opponents. Plus, Alyce is just an awesome shooter in general with a 6 Cb and 3 minimum damage.

Lastly, the main reason to run Alyce is for further crafting of your control hand. You basically get to draw up to 8 cards at the beginning of each turn, and then have to immediately discard 2 of them (so you're at your max hand size of 6). Gives you the chance to chuck off two crappy cards. Then you have Ramos with his Surge Trigger, and you can quickly have a handful of awesome cards. Also, running Alyce and the Brass Arachnid means you're more likely to get that 11 :tomes or higher you need for Stoke. Imagine how nasty it could be in one turn to have both a Steamborg Executioner and an Arachnid Swarm with Reactivate. :D

Oh, also, another popular trick with Alyce's Burn Out, is to use it on a Swarm, and then during their 2nd activation, use the 2 Melee Master swings and only 1 general AP first, then use the last general AP for Self-Destruct. Since the swarm would be down to 1 Wd anyways, and likely die the next turn, might as well go out with a bang! :)

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Be careful about this. ALL effects on a model transfer over when you do a 'Replace' action, which is what happens when you Swarm Together. So, if you cast Burn Out on an individual Spider, and then it Swarms Together during that same turn, then the effect would still transfer over to the Swarm, and it would be knocked down to 1 Wd during the Closing Phase.

Burn Out is a pretty situational ability for me. I don't use it all THAT often. The real key with Alyce though, is that she gets to utilize Ramos' 8 :tomes Ca if she wants to. So you can cast Burn Out, Rust or the Steampunk Abomination summoning spells with ease with her. Rust is particularly good, because then you have BOTH Rust and Ramos' Electrical Fire spells which can be cast starting at an 8, and they ignore Armor. So very good against armored opponents. Plus, Alyce is just an awesome shooter in general with a 6 Cb and 3 minimum damage.

Lastly, the main reason to run Alyce is for further crafting of your control hand. You basically get to draw up to 8 cards at the beginning of each turn, and then have to immediately discard 2 of them (so you're at your max hand size of 6). Gives you the chance to chuck off two crappy cards. Then you have Ramos with his Surge Trigger, and you can quickly have a handful of awesome cards. Also, running Alyce and the Brass Arachnid means you're more likely to get that 11 :tomes or higher you need for Stoke. Imagine how nasty it could be in one turn to have both a Steamborg Executioner and an Arachnid Swarm with Reactivate. :D

Oh, also, another popular trick with Alyce's Burn Out, is to use it on a Swarm, and then during their 2nd activation, use the 2 Melee Master swings and only 1 general AP first, then use the last general AP for Self-Destruct. Since the swarm would be down to 1 Wd anyways, and likely die the next turn, might as well go out with a bang! :)

I understand how good she is and what you can do with Alyce. the miscommunication is, her main ability to make swarms epic is useless. the list i will be using primarily is the one above. i wont be using the Swarms and their tactics. my main list runs pretty much just new models. i wanna grab Johan because of the synergy with my all Special Forces list. since he is a MS&U Asset and he is buffed by being in 3" of other Special Forces, i favor him over Alyce for this list. i am still getting Alyce for when i want to play the swarms.

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I understand how good she is and what you can do with Alyce. the miscommunication is, her main ability to make swarms epic is useless. the list i will be using primarily is the one above. i wont be using the Swarms and their tactics. my main list runs pretty much just new models. i wanna grab Johan because of the synergy with my all Special Forces list. since he is a MS&U Asset and he is buffed by being in 3" of other Special Forces, i favor him over Alyce for this list. i am still getting Alyce for when i want to play the swarms.

Be careful....Johan is an M&SU MEMBER, not an ASSET. There's a slight difference there.

I think the 2nd list you posted looks like a fun one, but I wouldn't give up on the Steamborg and the Arachnid Swarms just yet. They are still fairly powerful models, even without any reactivating tricks. ;)

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One thing you should try to bring is models with the ability to paralyze as it cancels out colette's whole "slow to die + healing flip immortality" thing.

Another thing to consider would be anything with instant kill triggers which require the discarding of soulstones. Colette really doesn't like having to burn through her stones or control cards.

Also, an effect which hurts her is poison. If she's already almost dead, poison can pretty much promise you a stone burned every time she tries to activate.

The other option is to ignore her entirely and smack her girls around as she relies fairly heavily on them to get around and out of trouble.

Great post, +1. As I play both masters- these tips for dealing with Collette are huge. Remember that the Steamborg Executioner has an instant-kill ability with built-in damage, which is great for Collette. The thing is though- with Collette's speed she'll be more likely to decide when to fight the Steamborg and can burn it down surprisingly fast.

Ramos has another weakness for Collette and that is easy access to pulse damage from spiders, Electrical Creations, and constructs. Collette's crews tend to be notoriously low on wounds, so your 2 and 3 dmg pulses hurt them quite a bit. Even if the models don't die to the pulses, it may force your opponent to think about running some healing flips around to keep models going- which means spending soulstones/doves healing everything except for Duet and Mannequins that can heal without stones. Getting Collette's crew to burn stones early and keeping her SS cache low early in a game "discourages" her from taking as many chances on her attacks, which helps balance her speed advantage.

For this reason I like the Mobile Toolkit for summoning the Electrical Creation/Spiders more easily, so you can do it early and often. I personally don't like trying to shoot at Collette- a smart Collette player will use switches and speed to jam up your LoS to at least half of her crew, so if you take 2 gunslingers at least one of them is not getting shots or has become an easy target for Cassie/Duet to leapfrog into your backfield with.

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Be careful....Johan is an M&SU MEMBER, not an ASSET. There's a slight difference there.

I think the 2nd list you posted looks like a fun one, but I wouldn't give up on the Steamborg and the Arachnid Swarms just yet. They are still fairly powerful models, even without any reactivating tricks. ;)

Its kinda Pertnant to knwo the difference. i am pretty sure the list i have is going to be full of Assets. they are still Special Forces. but if Johan is going to not get his bonuses off my crew members like i thought i will swap him out for Totem options and Avatar... having 4 SS available to play with Totems i can get better totems that may fit my style and crew better then the BA... i would like to run a Toolkit or maybe even the Student of Conflict.

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Johan only gets the bonus to Cb when he's within 3" of a M&SU Member. So far, this means C. Hoffman, Colette, Ramos, Joss, and the Union Miner. Remember; the Miner is both an Asset and a M&SU Member, so it shows that there is a distinction between the two.

Also a fun thing to note; Johan is cheaper when hired into a crew containing a M&SU Member, not just led by one. Union Miners make him 1 SS cheaper, although most of the Masters that would take him are already M&SU Members. The only person this is really useful for is Kaeris, who is an Asset without being a Member.

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