Removing poison tokens

[Ferb]

Hi,

This came up in a game today. We had the Ortegas vs Zoraida/Collodi and weren't sure how can you remove Poison tokens?

Shrug Off says counters & effects as does Spellbreaker and Poison is tokens.

Ropetus ruled here http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24273&highlight=remove+poison&page=5 as follows:

Definition of effect: anything applied on a model during the game which changes their attributes from what is written on their card, except for Wd loss.

This includes stuff like: modifications to stats and additional Talents from Talents and Spells, debuffs applied on the model by another model's Talent or Spell (Censure, Undead Psychosis, Hex, etc.), states of models (Defensive Stance, Falling Back, etc.) and ongoing Auras (the effect must be removed from the model the Aura originates from). Maybe some other stuff too which I don't remember at the moment. The point is that effects are temporal and change the model from what is written on their card.

Stuff that are definitely not effects are as follows (but not limited to): Wd loss, model's position on the board, Counters and Tokens (the latter get a specific mention in the spell so all is well), anything written on the model's stat card originally, attributes of terrain (you can't remove Severe or Impassable from a terrain piece), instantaneous Actions like Pulses (though if they have lasting effects those effects can be removed).

This would seem to indicate that poison tokens are not an effect and as they are tokens not counters I'm not sure how you could remove them.

Thanks,

Ferb

[Buhallin]

This would seem to indicate that poison tokens are not an effect and as they are tokens not counters I'm not sure how you could remove them.

Tokens are neither Counters nor Markers and do not count as being in play for game purposes. They only track effects...

Emphasis mine.

Tokens are just there to remind you that the model has Poison on it, which is an effect. Therefore, Shrug Off can fix it.

Edited September 9, 2011 by Buhallin

[gnam]

This came up in a game locally last night as well. In reviewing the Tokens portion of the Rules Manual, we found that tokens represent an in-game effect, and ruled that Shrug Off would indeed remove the Poison.

This is by no means an official ruling, just what we went by.

[Ferb]

Thanks for the replies, it's what I thought but got confused when Ropetus said that tokens were definately not effects.

Thanks,

Ferb

[poulpox]

The RM introduced the "token" term after poison was defined hence it holding an old terminology. In poison definition you shoud read "token" instead of "counter". You can remove poison tokens with Shrug off.

[Q'iq'el]

The RM introduced the "token" term after poison was defined hence it holding an old terminology. In poison definition you shoud read "token" instead of "counter". You can remove poison tokens with Shrug off.

Do you remove poison as a whole, or just 1 token, though?

[poulpox]

Only one token. We used to remove counters, now we just remove tokens instead

Edited September 10, 2011 by poulpox

[Ferb]

Shrug Off says 1 counter or 1 effect but Spellbreaker is all counters and all effects.

But is Poison 2 one effect or two effects?

Ferb

[karn987]

Shrug Off says 1 counter or 1 effect but Spellbreaker is all counters and all effects.

But is Poison 2 one effect or two effects?

Ferb

For something that removes an effect... I've always played it that it would remove all the Poison as you treat it as one effect. I think there is an old thread on this.... my search fu is failing. But I know this has been discussed somewhere in the past...

Hopefully an RM will stop by.

*Sets out the spot lights and signal flares*

[Candle Jack]

Just read in Twisting Fate that the the Shrug off wording was token or effect.

I think I even remember that somewher there was a Clarification changing it to this wording after the Rules Manual came out.

With this wording you need :rams:rams to discard two poison tokens with Shrug off.

[poulpox]

Shrug Off says 1 counter or 1 effect but Spellbreaker is all counters and all effects.

But is Poison 2 one effect or two effects?

Ferb

Once a model receives Poison 2, it receives 2 tokens (which used to be called counters). I don't think it has any effects on anymore, but it has individual tokens instead.

Shrug off should now read "discard 1 token or 1 effect" and Spellbreaker should read "discard all tokens and all effects"

EDIT: Ninja'd! there you go, the spell's description was changed in Book 3

[Ferb]

Thanks for the clarifications.

Ferb