Immune, Ignore, and which trumps which?

[paradox]

I am having a difficult time sorting out the intent of these rules as applied to specific instances.

Eg; Breach Psychosis is immune to Talents and Spells that require a Wp duel.

The Box Opens lose immunities to Wp duels.

Conclusion: Ryle lose Breach psychosis because it grants an immunity to Wp duels.

EXCEPT! Ryle is not immune to Wp duels, he is immune to talents and spells that require a Wp duel.

BUT! The Box Opens is a Talent, thus he is immune to it, as immunity to a Talent is not an immunity to Wp duels.

HOWEVER! Breach Psychosis is a type of immunity to Wp duesl, and The box Opens makes you lose "ANY" immunities to Wp duels, which includes Talents that grant immunity to Talents.

...ad nauseum....

----------------------------------

Eg; Breach psychosis vs Irresistable

Irresistable cannot be ignored by Talents.

BP: does not ignore, it is immune to talents; ie not affected by Irresistable. It is immune.

Conclusion; Ryle does not ignore, he is immune. Therefore he does not test Wp when targetting performers.

------------------------------

Eg; Blind Justice ignores any duels required to target.

Irresistable cannot be ignored by Talents.

Blind Justice is a spell, not a talent.

Blind Justice ignores Irresistable

-----------------------------------------

Eg; Expose Fears + The Box Opens vs Blind Justice

EF requires a Wp duel

TBO lose immunties to Wp duels

BJ ignores Wp duels

Because BJ ignores, it is not immune. No immunity to lose. BJ ignores EF and no Wp test is required. TBO has no effect on BJ. (Bowen, you are now SO screwed! )

-------------------------------------------------------

Eg; Immune to influence vs Irresistable

Immune to influence is immune to Wp duels when defender

ITI attacker is not a defender (simple duel).

ITI does not apply.

---------------------------------------

Eg; Breach Psychosis vs EF + TBO

BP is immune to Wp duels

EF requires Wp duels

BP is immune to Ef

BUT!

BP is immunity

TBO lose immunity

BP is lost

Ryle must Duel to target Pandora

(yes, I know this is the same as above)

---------------------------------------

Lure vs ITI

Lure require WP duel

ITI is immune as defender

ITI cannot be lured

-------------------------------

Lure + TBO vs ITI

TBO lose immunities

ITI is immunity

ITI is lost

Lure requires Wp duel

ITI is lost and can be lured

------------------

BP vs Lure

BP is immune to talents and spells require Wp duel

Lure is a spell requiring Wp duel

BP is immune

-----------------------------------

BP vs Lure + TBO

BP is immune

TBO lose immune

BP is lost

BP may be lured

--------------------------------

So, do these sound about right?

[Dolomyte]

I believe going down the line those are all correct.

[paradox]

So Pandora is what really makes FILTH tick vs Guild. But Justice is hard counter to that, as it will allow you to blast away at Pandora (where possible). And once The Box Opens is out of the picture, Immune to Influence models are now immune to Lure, negating the trick.

Otherwise, Blind Justice will allow you to shoot Nekima/lilitus instead.

[Dolomyte]

In theory, which we all managed to come up with last night and this morning, yes.

I've been horribly wrong on rulings befores (Sword Dance, Stitched together, Etc. Etc.)

[Hatchethead]

Loving this thread.

The Expose Fears + The Box Opens vs Blind Justice question has come up in my meta more than once. Is LJ able to ignore TBO simply because of the wording, immune versus ignore? That would seem to make the most sense, intuitively speaking.

We have a new Pandora player entering the mix as well, so (assuming a Marshal saunters in an confirms) it's great that I'll be up to speed on how these complex interactions actually play out ...

[paradox]

Immune and Ignore are separate and distinct game terms, found on pg19 of the Rules Manual.

[Ratty]

Ignore allows you to temporarily remove an ability from a card so you act as if it wasn't there. Eg Perdita can act as if Pandora didn't have Emotional Trauma on her card and shoot her without making a WP check.

Immune means you don't take the effects from the thing your immune to. EG. If I'm immune to Poison, I would just not take the counter.

If something can't be ignored, it would also cover immunities to it. More or less as ignore means you act as if the text wasn't there, can't be ignored means you have to use the text of the ability. So Irresistable would work against something with Breach Psychosis.

------------------------------

• So Breach psychosis vs Irresistable. Irresistable test has to be taken.
  
• Irresistable only can't be ignored by talents. Blind Justice is a Spell so can ignore it.
  
• Expose Fear can be ignored by Blind Justice as it's not an immunity it's ignoring the entire ability.
  
• Immune to influence doesn't work if your attacked so you would have to take an Irresitable check.
  
• The Box Open removes Immunity to Wp duels so Breach Psychosis doesn't work in The Box Opens bubble.
  
• Immune to Influence stops Lure as your the defender.
  
• The Box Open will remove Immune to Influence, so you could be Lured.
  
• Breach Psychosis would stop you being Lured.
  
• Breach Psychosis would be removed by The Box Opens so you could be Lured.
  

[nilus]

So Pandora is what really makes FILTH tick vs Guild. But Justice is hard counter to that, as it will allow you to blast away at Pandora (where possible). And once The Box Opens is out of the picture, Immune to Influence models are now immune to Lure, negating the trick.

.

Problem you run into is Lilitus are friendly woes. So Pandora can move her damage on to them. Honestly Pandora and Nekima are both big hitters in that list. Nekima is just a little easier to kill first.

[paradox]

Ignore allows you to temporarily remove an ability from a card so you act as if it wasn't there. Eg Perdita can act as if Pandora didn't have Emotional Trauma on her card and shoot her without making a WP check.

Immune means you don't take the effects from the thing your immune to. EG. If I'm immune to Poison, I would just not take the counter.

If something can't be ignored, it would also cover immunities to it. More or less as ignore means you act as if the text wasn't there, can't be ignored means you have to use the text of the ability. So Irresistable would work against something with Breach Psychosis.

------------------------------

• So Breach psychosis vs Irresistable. Irresistable test has to be taken.
  
• Irresistable only can't be ignored by talents. Blind Justice is a Spell so can ignore it.
  
• Expose Fear can be ignored by Blind Justice as it's not an immunity it's ignoring the entire ability.
  
• Immune to influence doesn't work if your attacked so you would have to take an Irresitable check.
  
• The Box Open removes Immunity to Wp duels so Breach Psychosis doesn't work in The Box Opens bubble.
  
• Immune to Influence stops Lure as your the defender.
  
• The Box Open will remove Immune to Influence, so you could be Lured.
  
• Breach Psychosis would stop you being Lured.
  
• Breach Psychosis would be removed by The Box Opens so you could be Lured.
  

If I read this right, Ignore > Immune.

Ok.

Here's my difficulty then. Breach Psychosis is a Talent.

BP is immune to Talents that require a Wp duel.

BP is not immune to Wp duels, it is immune to Talents.

The Box Opens is a Talent.

Irresistable is a Talent.

Expose Fears is a Talent.

Expose Fears requires a Wp test.

TBO removes Immunity from Wp tests.

Irresistable requires a Wp test.

BP ignores Talents that require Wp tests.

BP ignores EF and Irresistable, as they are Talents that require Wp tests.

BP does not ignore TBO because it does not require Wp test.

TBO does not remove BP because BP is not immunity to Wp test, it is Immunity to Talents that require a Wp test. BP is not immune to Wp test, it is immune to Talents that require one.

BP is not an immunity of the type affected by TBO.

Therefore, Ryle may target Pandora without dueling.

[paradox]

Problem you run into is Lilitus are friendly woes. So Pandora can move her damage on to them. Honestly Pandora and Nekima are both big hitters in that list. Nekima is just a little easier to kill first.

How is this an issue?

The lilitus have Lure.

Lure is what is doing the trick.

If Pandora shuffles damage off, the Lilitus die instead.

Pandora is LOADS easier to hit than lilitus.

[nilus]

Thank you Ratty!

[nilus]

How is this an issue?

The lilitus have Lure.

Lure is what is doing the trick.

If Pandora shuffles damage off, the Lilitus die instead.

Pandora is LOADS easier to hit than lilitus.

Pandora can spread the damage between two models. So thus no one is dieing quickly. Plus Lilitus heal each other(even worse if a Lelu gets summoned).

Plus Pandora is HT2 so she can easily find LOS blocking cover. Nekima not so much

I still say Nekima is the better target. It shuts down the mask, thus making the auto trigger stop happening.

Edit: I realize that we are talking about Austigers here without a need for LOS, so ignore some of my comment. Pandora might not be a bad target although I see her staying alive a lot longer then you would think.

Edited August 12, 2011 by nilus

[Turbodog]

I can only give you what our gaming group does. I'm not a rules marshall and I've been very, very wrong on my intrepetations before (but also at times right) *shrug*

I'll go through each situation:

Eg; Breach psychosis vs Irresistable

Irresistable cannot be ignored by Talents.

BP: does not ignore, it is immune to talents; ie not affected by Irresistable. It is immune.

Conclusion; Ryle does not ignore, he is immune. Therefore he does not test Wp when targetting performers.

We can't tell a definate difference between the terms Immune and Ignore according to the rules manual. We treat them the same. That said, it is important to us that Ryle's BP is a talent that makes him immune to "talents and spells" of a certain kind.

Our ruling would be:

Irresistable is a talent that cannot be ignore by Talents

BP is a talent

Ryle does not ignore and must take the test.

------------------------------

Eg; Blind Justice ignores any duels required to target.

Irresistable cannot be ignored by Talents.

Blind Justice is a spell, not a talent.

Blind Justice ignores Irresistable

We would rule the same for the reasons you stated.

-----------------------------------------

Eg; Expose Fears + The Box Opens vs Blind Justice

EF requires a Wp duel

TBO lose immunties to Wp duels

BJ ignores Wp duels

Because BJ ignores, it is not immune. No immunity to lose. BJ ignores EF and no Wp test is required. TBO has no effect on BJ. (Bowen, you are now SO screwed! )

We'd rule this differently...here's how it would go for us.

EF requires a WP duel

TBO attempts to remove immunities to WP duels

BJ says to ignore (same as immunity to us) any duels to target

Since EF is a WP duel, BJ is trying to ignoring a WP duel and so TBO removes it!

Result: Model must test for EF.

-------------------------------------------------------

Eg; Immune to influence vs Irresistable

Immune to influence is immune to Wp duels when defender

ITI attacker is not a defender (simple duel).

ITI does not apply.

Same ruling and reasoning.

---------------------------------------

Eg; Breach Psychosis vs EF + TBO

BP is immune to Wp duels

EF requires Wp duels

BP is immune to Ef

BUT!

BP is immunity

TBO lose immunity

BP is lost

Ryle must Duel to target Pandora

(yes, I know this is the same as above)

Yes, same as above.

BP is an immunity to talents like EF (not WP duels)

TBO does not remove BP

Ryle ignores EF and shoots Pandora in the head - sorry couldn't resist adding the headshot reference for Guild players.

---------------------------------------

Lure vs ITI

Lure require WP duel

ITI is immune as defender

ITI cannot be lured

Same ruling for us.

-------------------------------

Lure + TBO vs ITI

TBO lose immunities

ITI is immunity

ITI is lost

Lure requires Wp duel

ITI is lost and can be lured

Same ruling for us.

------------------

BP vs Lure

BP is immune to talents and spells require Wp duel

Lure is a spell requiring Wp duel

BP is immune

Same ruling...Ryle is immune to the spell Lure.

-----------------------------------

BP vs Lure + TBO

BP is immune

TBO lose immune

BP is lost

BP may be lured

Different ruling. But same reasoning. TBO does not remove BP, thus Ryle can not be lured.

NOW *on the soap box* I really feel this could all be cleared up by erratting (is that a word?) to modify EITHER pandora's TBO or Ryle's BP, and you can craft exactly the effect you want:

Option 1: Make the Box opens say:

"Models within 12" of this model lose any immunities INVOLVING WP duels."

This makes the wording consistant with Insideous Madness. Clearly Ryle's BP involves WP duels so it would then be removed by TBO. It would also consistantly remove See the Unseen from Perdita and Blind Justice. This clearly makes TBO a powerful ability, but that may be the intent.

Option 2: Make Breach Psychosis say:

"This model is immune to WP duels caused by other models' Talents and Spells"

Really very similar effect for Ryle in terms of play. But it's now clear that Ryle is immune to WP duels and ANY effect that removes something which grants immunity to WP duels will remove BP. (The dative construction in English can be so troublesome sometimes. )

I think either option is fine and would be much happier playing with this officially changed.

[paradox]

We can't tell a definate difference between the terms Immune and Ignore according to the rules manual. We treat them the same. That said, it is important to us that Ryle's BP is a talent that makes him immune to "talents and spells" of a certain kind.

Actually we can. The differences are inferred in the text, and though not entirely clear, fall in line with what Ratty posted.

What really needs an actual ruling is the function of "any" in TBO vs BP brand of immunity. This is an undefined area of the rules otherwise laid out in the books and this thread.

[paradox]

I'd still like a satisfactory answer to my issue here.

There are at least two ways to read this interaction right now, both of which are equally valid.

If I read this right, Ignore > Immune.

Ok.

Here's my difficulty then. Breach Psychosis is a Talent.

BP is immune to Talents that require a Wp duel.

BP is not immune to Wp duels, it is immune to Talents.

The Box Opens is a Talent.

Irresistable is a Talent.

Expose Fears is a Talent.

Expose Fears requires a Wp test.

TBO removes Immunity from Wp tests.

Irresistable requires a Wp test.

BP ignores Talents that require Wp tests.

BP ignores EF and Irresistable, as they are Talents that require Wp tests.

BP does not ignore TBO because it does not require Wp test.

TBO does not remove BP because BP is not immunity to Wp test, it is Immunity to Talents that require a Wp test. BP is not immune to Wp test, it is immune to Talents that require one.

BP is not an immunity of the type affected by TBO.

Therefore, Ryle may target Pandora without dueling.

[Hatchethead]

Immune and Ignore are separate and distinct game terms, found on pg19 of the Rules Manual.

Not arguing that. I think where people get confused is when the Manual then lumps ignore and immune together when defining their impact on the game. EDIT: But Ratty has cleared that up.

Edited August 12, 2011 by Hatchethead

[Hatchethead]

If something can't be ignored, it would also cover immunities to it. More or less as ignore means you act as if the text wasn't there, can't be ignored means you have to use the text of the ability.

So, for all intents and purposes, does this mean an immunity allows you to ignore (game term) the effect of a whatever you're immune to ... basically leading to a situation where, sure, your Talent/Spell is successful but the effect portion of said Talent/Spell no longer exists on the card ... which then leads to can't be ignored indirectly nullifying immunities?

[paradox]

Unless I miss my guess, the relevant effect of Immune vs Ignore is whether ANOTHER Spell/Talent removes an immunity or cannot be ignored. Eg; The Box Opens and Irresistable.

TBO removes immunity only. So things that are Immune are no long Immune, but things that ignore still ignore.

Irresistable cannot be ignored via a Talent. So Talents that ignore OR grant immunity still must test, but Spells that ignore or grant immunity may still ignore or be immune.

[Turbodog]

I'm sad that Ratty's post doesn't help me more like it should. I wish I could see it clearly.

Ignore allows you to temporarily remove an ability from a card so you act as if it wasn't there. Eg Perdita can act as if Pandora didn't have Emotional Trauma on her card and shoot her without making a WP check.

Immune means you don't take the effects from the thing your immune to. EG. If I'm immune to Poison, I would just not take the counter.

If something can't be ignored, it would also cover immunities to it. More or less as ignore means you act as if the text wasn't there, can't be ignored means you have to use the text of the ability. So Irresistable would work against something with Breach Psychosis.

Okay, so Immune to Influence says I am immune to WP duels when I am the defender. I've been playing that it means I don't take the WP duel. Aren't I ignoring the WP duel? Not that I take the WP duel and then ignore the effects. Unless I'm doing it all wrong and need to be flipping alot more cards in my games.

Maybe it's like a subset thing. All Ignores are Immunes, but not all Immunes are Ignores...? Now my head just hurts.

I still think the cleanest way to clean this up is reword slightly via something like option 1 or 2 I gave.

----also----

@Paradox

Me - We can't tell a definate difference between the terms Immune and Ignore according to the rules manual

You - Actually we can.

Sorry - that "we" from me was referring to just my little gaming group. Not the greater we of everyone on the boards. I'm happy if everyone else can. I'll start just using first person when expressing my own opinions.