LoS and Windows

[Naravus]

How do you work out LoS through buildings, or ruins of some sort, with windows?

For example, lets assume height four buildings with windows where you normally thing they would be. Can a model draw LoS through this window to a model on the other side of the building? Something like this:

Ovals are enemy models, lets assume they're both HT 2.

[trichloro]

I would have to say depends....

If there is nothing inside the house blocking LOS and you did not declare the house as obscuring, then yes they can see each other, if both are standing in front of the windows.

If you declared the house as obscuring terrain for some reason, then you could not target though it at all.

[nilus]

This is one of those things that is generally a personal call in the group.

Some people and players feel windows should just be blocking terrain.

Personally, and most people I think agree, we believe you should be able to see through them assuming nothing else is in the way inside. I would call it cover though and make the shot at -1 fate though.

[Q'iq'el]

First, a building has "Structure" type of terrain. Remember every terrain always has a base - either physical flat surface it stands on, or the "virtual" base of the size of it's shadow on the map (what it occupies, including area under balconies, sticking out roofs etc).

Structures are elevated (have ht), blocking and impassable.

Doors are open terrain, windows are ht1 blocking terrain.

Inside counts as open terrain.

However, the rule that makes it impossible to see through a whole piece of blocking terrain, unless the attacker or the defender is higher than the terrain, is still in force. So you can see into the building, and you can see out of the building, but it should block the LoS across its base, bar for targets higher than the building.

[nilus]

Q has the much better answer. Official you can't do it. But a lot of places house rule you can. Terrain is always hard to model with rules as it can be very subjective

[trichloro]

Doors are open terrain, windows are ht1 blocking terrain.

Inside counts as open terrain.

If that is true, wouldn't you just be shooting over ht 1 blocking through open terrian and over ht 1 again for the other window?

Isn't it like saying the whole board is open terrain except for the lava flow which is hazardous?

The whole house is a structure, except for the inside and the windows are doors, those elements have their own rules.

[Q'iq'el]

If that is true, wouldn't you just be shooting over ht 1 blocking through open terrian and over ht 1 again for the other window?

Isn't it like saying the whole board is open terrain except for the lava flow which is hazardous?

The whole house is a structure, except for the inside and the windows are doors, those elements have their own rules.

No, because the doors and the windows are exceptions within the structure. The entire structure has its own height and is blocking, so when you check if you can see through that piece of terrain, you use its global stats.

It's the same with all Malifaux terrain really. You may see 3" into the forest (obscuring terrain), but if your forest has 1", and your opponent is on the other side of the forest's base, you cannot see across the base.

Basically speaking, if some of the terrain rules allow you to see into it, you can. But you never can see across the blocking terrain, unless you (or the target) are higher than the terrain itself (which in this case is the height of the building).

Lava flow would be different, because being a terrain feature it has its own base (even if "virtual") and acts as independent terrain. In this case window or doors have no base and can't act as independent terrain - they are simply parts of larger thing and you have to take that larger base into account when trying to get LoS across it.

That's just my interpretation - take it for what it's worth. I may well be wrong here.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[trichloro]

Ok, Fair enough. But isn't the inside an exception as well?

I do see what you are saying about obscuring terrian and blocking terrian about shooting through them.

But if all the exceptions line up, wouldn't that cut a hole through the blocking terrain since the excpetion are there already?

You delcare a piece of terrain blocking. Lets say a wall with a ht 3 pillar at the end, but the rest of the wall is ht 1, it is all one piece, do you break down each section with differnet heights or is it all what ever the highest point is? Since they are all one base.

If you break it down, then the windows would only be ht 1 for that portion of the structure and you should be able to shoot over it with no issue, which then would go over open terrain(inside the building) and over ht 1 blocking terrain again.

I could be wrong as well... this is why my post count is so low on the forum after being registered for awhile.

[Q'iq'el]

As the Malifaux terrain rules currently stand, you can't have one piece of terrain with ht1 and ht3 elements. You have one global stat - you either say it's ht1, because that's the majority, or you treat the column as separate terrain on separate base... or you make everything ht3, which may be weird.

What I'm trying to say, it is not the building or the window or the wall which blocks LoS. It's the base of the terrain. That base represents a virtual cube with the dimensions of the building and height of its ht stat. If you want to check LoS to the other side, you check against that cube.

Now if you want to check LoS inside of that piece of terrain, different rules apply - that makes windows and doors work.

Nothing stops you from playing differently in your group. I'm not 100% sure of my interpretation either. It's just that Malifaux terrain is very highly abstracted and you shouldn't really think about actual shapes and holes in items - just look at the stats, characteristics and the base size.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Guy in Suit]

Thanks for that breakdown, Q'iq'el. I've played it that way myself - but its nice to have a hard and fast explanation when playing new people.

[Calmdown]

Yeh, Malifaux terrain rules are pretty bad. Better than GW style arguments about everything, but out the other side in their oversimplicity.

We play buildings or ruins with windows as impassible, Ht whatever, but we allow firing through them with true LoS and apply hard cover as per book rules.

[Guy in Suit]

True LOS is the worst mechanic in gaming, period.

Good riddance.

Try in real life to shoot THROUGH windows on opposite sides of a building at combat speed. Its a waste of bullets. This 'simple' rule makes a lot more sense than silly TLOS.