Dark Alleycat Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 I don't disagree that he's got some really unique skills which need a specific approach (but with some thought they can be countered) - my issue is when people make sweeping statements as gospel with little or no experience of the full dynamic of what they're talking about. Sarcasm aside, I think you just have to give it some thought as each Master would counter Hamelin in a very specific way (I know how I'd play with Perdita, Zoraida, Pandora, Cridd, Rasputina). And don't forget iirc he auto-loses Slaughter. Im not saying he cant be countered. Im saying that he has the very real and likely possibility of countering most strategies...no matter how good your opponent plays.Yes...he will almost certainly lose Slaughter..But say...against Freikorps. on an average 30 ss list I will have 6-7 models. That means in..even taking his time..3 turns,none of my troops can interact with game objectives that require non insignificant models to do it. and All of his models can. Now its a guarantee he will have more models then me to begin with so i would be doing a uphill battle to begin with. On a side note since im planning on picking up Criid as my next master,how would you beat him reliably with her? no sarcasm,one of the best players I know is starting hamelin and i am allready working on ways to stop him lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 Wow, I've been playing table top games for 15 years. Would you like to have a pissing competition next? Erm...you brought this up You haven't been able to refute any of my claims, Because they're baseless. Sorry bud, but that's all I can say. and now you've dropped to petty insults. I think if you re-read the post you'll see there's no insults there at all. Where's the ignore button again? Oh dear... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Alleycat Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 I understand where you're coming from, but you cant take the one ability in isolation. A lot of Masters have very powerful specific abilities (Pandora, Collette, Dreamer, Viks...) True...but I don't feel any of them have the ability to be so incredibly game changing as fate is meaningless can be. Pandora for instance..Incite and Pacify can be resisted,even if its difficult. The Viktorias dont even have any (0) actions. I dont have rising powers so I cant for sure say about the dreamer and collette. From what i remember the dreamer has some incredible (0) actions...But he can still have to do a triple negative flip.As long as Hamelin gets to activate,he gets to ignore negatives. That means he never has to cheat higher then equal when attacking to cheat in any card he wants. And chances are good that Hamelin will have a great supply of cards,due to rat base stats meaning that to avoid losing you have to cheat more often then not,and being able to hold onto the good cards he plays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 Im not saying he cant be countered. Im saying that he has the very real and likely possibility of countering most strategies...no matter how good your opponent plays.Yes...he will almost certainly lose Slaughter..But say...against Freikorps. on an average 30 ss list I will have 6-7 models. That means in..even taking his time..3 turns,none of my troops can interact with game objectives that require non insignificant models to do it. and All of his models can. Now its a guarantee he will have more models then me to begin with so i would be doing a uphill battle to begin with. That's a fair shout - that would be a pretty poor match On a side note since im planning on picking up Criid as my next master,how would you beat him reliably with her? no sarcasm,one of the best players I know is starting hamelin and i am allready working on ways to stop him lol. Personally I'd Soulstone up and chain blast damage onto him (I can't remember the name of the spell at the moment) and use witchling stalkers for their area damage when they die. Also, if need be consider throwing Jackdaw at him - terrifying->13 will see off most of his crew and you can stop him cheating and using soulstones (and if you want to be ultra mean you can target jackdaw with your blast spell to cheat up the damage output ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WUWU Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 Erm...you brought this up Because they're baseless. Sorry bud, but that's all I can say. I think if you re-read the post you'll see there's no insults there at all. Oh dear... No, you brought it up with your ad hominem attack on my experience. Just because you say they're baseless doesn't make it true. Keep trying though. Why am I not surprised all the Hamelin apologists have The Plagued avatars? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentor Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 My suggestion would be for everyone to stop posting and just let the thread die. This post was destined to be a flame war from the moment of its inception. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 Pandora for instance..Incite and Pacify can be resisted,even if its difficult. Considering Pandora, here's a few (very much untested - aka "paper playtested" lol) ideas - 1) Use a doppleganger and sorrow(s) to get multiple instances of Emotional Trauma in play 2) Use Jackdaw to shut down his cheating and SS use (Pandora can do most of her stuff outside of this aura) 3) Stiched Togethers can sut down LoS which helps against Pipes 4) Alps used well can get some nice damage on his swarm, especially coupled with Emotional Trauma 5) Use Pandora's fall back trigger (I cant for the life of me remember its name!) to get rid of Rat Catchers and (easier once JD is in place but not essential) Hamelin 6) Multiple incites will then kill off his entire swarm in one activation 7) Remember that anyone must pass a WP dual to target Pandy and any successful attacks can be passed to a friendly woe in base contact which gives her a lot of defence against being made insignificant That's off the top of my head so I will likely have missed things, but hopefully you'll see where I'm going? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 Just because you say they're baseless doesn't make it true. Saying he's better than every master when you've only played a fraction of the masters over a few weeks is baseless mate. I've no personal issue with you here, just trying to get you to see your comments in perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WUWU Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 That's a fair shout - that would be a pretty poor match Personally I'd Soulstone up and chain blast damage onto him (I can't remember the name of the spell at the moment) and use witchling stalkers for their area damage when they die. Also, if need be consider throwing Jackdaw at him - terrifying->13 will see off most of his crew and you can stop him cheating and using soulstones (and if you want to be ultra mean you can target jackdaw with your blast spell to cheat up the damage output ) Hamelin doesn't even need to be near the rest of his crew now with the errata. How are you going to chain blast damage onto him? Even if a rat is near by you are -1 twist if you target it. Terrifying can be effective, yes, but only against half his crew. Useless Toy. Hamelin doesn't need to cheat. Strong theorycraft. I can tell you're very experienced Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 (edited) Hamelin doesn't even need to be near the rest of his crew now with the errata. How are you going to chain blast damage onto him? Even if a rat is near by you are -1 twist if you target it. Terrifying can be effective, yes, but only against half his crew. Useless Toy. Hamelin doesn't need to cheat. Strong theorycraft. I can tell you're very experienced Ok, now you're just being a troll, and showing your actual lack of experience. 1) Cridd's spell creates three 50mm blast templates which (with the trigger) can be positioned two inches away from the initial target. Hamelin is either in range or voracious rats is not in range - either way is a win. 2) Ratcatchers who die in the blast damage don't summon rats as all deaths happen at the same time. 3) You don't have to target rats if there is something else nearby (ratcatchers, stolen etc), if there isn't then it's worth focusing to wipe them out 4) You don't have to target the closest rat, so if Hamelin is in range of ANY of them he can be hit 5) Worse case if you get a poor -ive flip you can soulstone the total 6) Also, useless toy is okay but costs you a model (iirc) and doesn't allow you to cheat/use a soulstone in JD's aura - both of which the other master can do (I'm presuming you meant it in relation to this?) And btw, this ain't theory craft - it's a match we've played out Edited April 3, 2011 by magicpockets typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Alleycat Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 That's a fair shout - that would be a pretty poor match Personally I'd Soulstone up and chain blast damage onto him (I can't remember the name of the spell at the moment) and use witchling stalkers for their area damage when they die. Also, if need be consider throwing Jackdaw at him - terrifying->13 will see off most of his crew and you can stop him cheating and using soulstones (and if you want to be ultra mean you can target jackdaw with your blast spell to cheat up the damage output ) the big problem is that ALOT of gangs are smaller model counts. And Hamelin can shut down a small model gang pretty quickly. And make it that rather then playing to win,you are busting your ass to get a tie. in that situation,you have to declare your schemes,pull off both of them,and do your best to prevent hamelin from doing any schemes. That will make it a tie. As for hitting hamelin,the problem becomes...it doesn't matter if you kill him. he can come back. It does weaken him granted and that is a step in the right direction. I suppose the best way to sum up my feelings about Hamelin requires a reference to games workshop. That reference would be codex creeping. That in an effort to make new things unique and exciting,that they can end up being more powerful then they should be when compared to some of their counterparts. In a game,there should be a chance for any master to win against any other master with any of the strategies. Hamelin has the very easy ability to take that away,and at a larger distance then any other if I remember correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ducat Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 Hamelin doesn't even need to be near the rest of his crew now with the errata. How are you going to chain blast damage onto him? By targeting your own models with flame burst from sonia - witchling stalker is great for a target of this with magic resist 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Alleycat Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 Pockets,so I know for sure. how much range does hamelin have on his "make you insignificant" spell? I am basing most of my concerns on that ability,which I do know requires him to be somewhat close to make it happen. Now...from what I have seen in my game partnered with Hamelin,was that without the ratcatchers he had very low mobility without killing off his own models. I think honestly he was keeping that in reserve to use as a suprise. So really,you dont need to hit the rats,especially with them coming back. The targets I would say are Nix,for his +2 dmg to weak damage,the Ratcatchers for mobility and being able to keep swarms alive in a larger area. The stolen because they can keep him from dying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Alleycat Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 2) Ratcatchers who die in the blast damage don't summon rats as all deaths happen at the same time. And btw, this ain't theory craft - it's a match we've played out Are you 100% sure about the deaths happening at the same time? If so then yes that would give a good way of dealing with things. I was under the impression that the models were killed one by one in a blast situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wodschow Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 "Hamelin power level poll. Not a debate". So please bring this discussion elsewhere.. Thank you very much. This said I think Hamelin is very good at some strategies, and on the contrary very bad at others (slaughter, anyone?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Alleycat Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 "Hamelin power level poll. Not a debate". So please bring this discussion elsewhere.. Thank you very much. But it took so much effort to derail this train. If we jump off of it now its a 3/6/dead flip for all the posters. Think of the posters Man...Think of the Posters! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchethead Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 "Hamelin power level poll. Not a debate". You beat me to it. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 Pockets,so I know for sure. how much range does hamelin have on his "make you insignificant" spell? iirc "pipes" is 10 inches (which uses a trigger to give insignificant) and understand the soulless (which needs a model to be sacrificed so isn't ideal) is 12 inches Now...from what I have seen in my game partnered with Hamelin,was that without the ratcatchers he had very low mobility without killing off his own models. I think honestly he was keeping that in reserve to use as a suprise. Personally I'd go after Ratcatchers first, even if he summons another he's eating into his own rats. So really,you dont need to hit the rats,especially with them coming back. Remember though if they die in blast damage along with Hamelin/Rat Catchers your opponent doesn't get replacements as everything dies at the same time. So works quite well for blast damage The targets I would say are Nix,for his +2 dmg to weak damage,the Ratcatchers for mobility and being able to keep swarms alive in a larger area. The stolen because they can keep him from dying. Absolutely agree with you - in order I'd say Ratcatchers, Stolen then Nix (but that's just opinion - may change as I play him more) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 "Hamelin power level poll. Not a debate". This was ALWAYS going to be a debate, you know that This said I think Hamelin is very good at some strategies, and on the contrary very bad at others (slaughter, anyone?). lol, case in point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Alleycat Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19878 Feel free to continue this here lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 (edited) lol - great minds -> http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19879 This is the thread we're using now Edited April 2, 2011 by magicpockets Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchethead Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 This was ALWAYS going to be a debate, you know that ... but do we really need another Hamelin QQ thread? That's borderline rhetorical. :guns: EDIT: I see y'all are on the same page! :bigthumb: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wodschow Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 Great.. Now let's debate whether we should have a debate or not in this -non-debate- thread... ? xD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 Great.. Now let's debate whether we should have a debate or not in this -non-debate- thread... ? xD You sir make me smile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WUWU Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 Ok, now you're just being a troll, and showing your actual lack of experience. 1) Cridd's spell creates two 50mm blast templates which (with the trigger) can be positioned two inches away from the initial target. Hamelin is either in range or voracious rats is not in range - either way is a win. 2) Ratcatchers who die in the blast damage don't summon rats as all deaths happen at the same time. 3) You don't have to target rats if there is something else nearby (ratcatchers, stolen etc), if there isn't then it's worth focusing to wipe them out 4) You don't have to target the closest rat, so if Hamelin is in range of ANY of them he can be hit 5) Worse case if you get a poor -ive flip you can soulstone the total 6) Also, useless toy is okay but costs you a model (iirc) and doesn't allow you to cheat/use a soulstone in JD's aura - both of which the other master can do (I'm presuming you meant it in relation to this?) And btw, this ain't theory craft - it's a match we've played out Understand the Soulless and Inevitable Truth have 12" range Sonnia's fireball is 10" She does nothing the rest of the game. "It doesn't matter how many times you do something if you are doing it poorly" I believe you said something along those lines in another thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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