Darguth Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 So we have threads on how awesome the new Rules Manual is (and it truly is, don't let this thread dissuade you from that!), what's changed in it, and the artwork in it. This thread is to discuss things that weren't changed that you were hoping would be, things that changed in a way you aren't happy with, or any other general disappointments with the new changes. Personally, one big disappointment to me that stood out as a Som'er player is that his Master-Specific Scheme is still just terrible. It requires I kill a model in melee with a weak weapon, with only my Master who I do not want anywhere near danger based on his playstyle, AND I need to get a trigger on the kill. It's just so impractical to pull off I don't see any real use for it outside making it an even greater challenge to play the Master, if for some reason I wanted that. This is one particular example, but I wished that perhaps the new RM alongside the V2 updates would have done more to balance gameplay *as well as* refine the ruleset. They both seem to have really only done the latter. Again, overall I'm VERY HAPPY with the RM and I'm quite glad I picked it up. It just may very well resurrect Malifaux in my playgroup, which had died out in favor of other games due to the disarray the rules were in. But that one small thing just kind irks me in the worst way :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayBarlekamp Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 I agree totally, Darguth. They made Hamelin and Lady J easier, but left poor Som'er with arguably the toughest of the bunch. I know they wanted to do away with 3 point schemes, but if any scheme begs to be worth 3 it's Som'er's. Unless of course Wyrd has a plan to add a gremlin that's capable of turning friendly models into enemies. Other than that, even in a friendly game that scheme pretty much impossible, especially since it has to be announced Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karn987 Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 Before this thread really gets going, I do want to pipe in with something. Balance is very often within the eye of the beholder and I know from my own experience, that what generally may seem Over-powered or Unbalanced in reality isn't. Your own view on things is what is often to blame and if you have a master you/model you really like, in general you are more sympathetic to it. So while some may say/think the game currently has a large balance issue... I doubt it is truthfully so. It may not be obvious to you right now or in several months, but they work their buts off to ensure the game remains as balanced as possible. Right now there are only a few outstanding issues with some models that are a bit out of balance right now and I am sure they are distinctly aware of these. I am also sure they have something in mind about them (maybe they don't agree and think they are fine etc). But in the end, true balance is impossible to attain. Any company can only do the best it can to get things right and with a game as complex and deep in it's interactions as Malifaux, its amazing their aren't rampant problems with broken combinations. So in all honesty, I do not believe their is a balance issue in the game. Yes some masters have slightly weaker crews right now (Marcus is always the example) but that can change with the release of another model or two. At the same time, some crews seem slightly stronger then the rest. This is not true at all, no-crew is all out more powerful then the rest. Malifaux embraces a bit of rock paper scissors style of play and some crews/masters are just at a disadvantage/advantage vs others. But right now none stand completely above the rest. As for the Master Schemes, don't get hung up on them! You don't have to use them and really they are just fun extra things, not all are meant to be competitive. But that's all from me. On the topic of the Rules Manual, I sorta wish the distance between the page edge and the binding was a bit thicker. I want to wire bind mine eventually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 (edited) I agree the Masters schemes don't have to be taken, I do like the fact they are all now all or nothing and worth 2vp. I do wish Kirai's and Hoffman's scheme hadn't become another assasinate this model scheme, they had a chance to make them a bit more zany and interesting, however at least Hoffman's now makes some sense. I do wish they had made Sabotage a bit harder. If they had made it a piece of scenery totally within your opponents deployment zone, I think it would be less contentious. Edited March 4, 2011 by Ratty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darguth Posted March 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 So in all honesty, I do not believe their is a balance issue in the game. Yes some masters have slightly weaker crews right now (Marcus is always the example) but that can change with the release of another model or two. At the same time, some crews seem slightly stronger then the rest. This is not true at all, no-crew is all out more powerful then the rest. Malifaux embraces a bit of rock paper scissors style of play and some crews/masters are just at a disadvantage/advantage vs others. But right now none stand completely above the rest. This is a sign of poor balance, in my opinion. And I think many would agree. It doesn't matter too much if Crew A wins 50% of the time on average against the field if they win 90% of the time against Crew B and loses 90% of the time against Crew C. Then it just matters what models I bring to the table, and not necessarily how well I play with them. Game balance needs to be considered in the microcosm of a single game as well the macrocosm (is that a word?) of all possible permutations of gameplay. BUT! This thread is not intended to be about game balance in particular, so while discussion about disappointment in game balance within the context of the new Rules Manual is expected, let us please not derail this thread into something else so quickly. If someone wishes to discuss the health of game balance in Malifaux more in full, let's please take it to a different thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tadaka Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 I don't know for sure but being as no one has brought it up I'm guessing it has not changed. I wanted to see blasts get a resist check. My brother refuses to play the game with me after the first game we ran in to this. A df 2 model got hit with a blast. It killed another model who could have resisted with a black joker. He is of the view you should all ways be able to at least try and defend. I agree but not as big of a deal to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayBarlekamp Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 I personally don't think that there are major balance issues either. My main issue is that some of the Master schemes were adjusted to make them easier in the rule manual and others weren't. It really isn't a big deal, but it would be nice if I could take Som'er's scheme and have a chance of completing it. I realize I don't have to take the Master schemes but it really is a balance issue when you compare the different Master schemes (Marcus's is a lot easier now, as is LJ's, even Levi's, which got a little tougher, is still almost a no-brainer.) As it is, it is a minor complaint, and hardly one which will ruin anyone's enjoyment of the game. It is however, a missed opportunity, especially considering they adjusted other schemes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 This is a sign of poor balance, in my opinion. And I think many would agree. It doesn't matter too much if Crew A wins 50% of the time on average against the field if they win 90% of the time against Crew B and loses 90% of the time against Crew C. Then it just matters what models I bring to the table, and not necessarily how well I play with them. Unfortunately if you don't want there to be any Rock/Paper/Scissors effect, you end up with chess. The point of a Wargame is certain models are good against certain models and bad against others. It's down to how you use these models to make the most of their advantages and less of their disadvantages. If you take a well balanced crew, you will do well most of the time. If you take a crew which is pushed heavily in one direction you will either win big or lose big most of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tadaka Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 Come on guys back on track please its my job to derail things and even I posted about the topic at hand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fushi Cho Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 I'm picking up my new rule manual tomorrow and I'm looking forward to it. Even if nothing has changed. I hate the wasted pages on the back story being interspersed in the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayBarlekamp Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 to add another issue I hoped would get fixed, what about the randomising targets with shooting. I really hoped they would change the wording of the randomizing to allow "accidentaly" hitting models that normally couldn't be targetted by certain models. As it is, they still become the new "target" which means that all targetting restrictions are still in effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WEiRD sKeTCH Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 I'm picking up my new rule manual tomorrow and I'm looking forward to it. Even if nothing has changed. I hate the wasted pages on the back story being interspersed in the rules. You're confused. The Rules Manual (WYR6014) has NO back story in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darguth Posted March 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 Unfortunately if you don't want there to be any Rock/Paper/Scissors effect, you end up with chess. The point of a Wargame is certain models are good against certain models and bad against others. It's down to how you use these models to make the most of their advantages and less of their disadvantages. If you take a well balanced crew, you will do well most of the time. If you take a crew which is pushed heavily in one direction you will either win big or lose big most of the time. I don't mean to dismiss your comments Ratty, but let's please keep discussion not related directly to the Rules Manual out of this particular thread if you wouldn't mind. If you're interested in the topic I'd be more than happy to discuss it, just I'd prefer not to do it here unless we're specifically talking about game balance changes/non-changes related to the new Rules Manual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 You're confused. The Rules Manual (WYR6014) has NO back story in it. I think that's his point - the interspersed story/rules in the main rulebook can make it painful to look something up mid-game. As much as I love the story, having the Rules Manual being JUST rules makes it much easier to find things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Alleycat Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 The problem I am having with the rules manual is the complete lack of ability to find the PDF they talked about having available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 The problem I am having with the rules manual is the complete lack of ability to find the PDF they talked about having available. They said it would be available March the 25th Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Alleycat Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 Ahhh...that would explain why I have not been able to find it,thank you again Ratty. When we felines rise up and conquer the world,you shall be spared the fate of the rest of your rodent kin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenbull Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 @Ratty: do you plan to implement the changes in your Scheme cards and strategy cards?:puppy: Did I tell you I like them very much? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 @Ratty: do you plan to implement the changes in your Scheme cards and strategy cards?:puppy: Did I tell you I like them very much? yeah I'm working on the v2 cards already. though it might take a week or two as I have other things on my plate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tadaka Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 yeah I'm working on the v2 cards already. though it might take a week or two as I have other things on my plate. O please the only thing on your plate is cheese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 O please the only thing on your plate is cheese There is rarely any cheese left on my plate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 I don't mean to dismiss your comments Ratty, but let's please keep discussion not related directly to the Rules Manual out of this particular thread if you wouldn't mind. If you're interested in the topic I'd be more than happy to discuss it, just I'd prefer not to do it here unless we're specifically talking about game balance changes/non-changes related to the new Rules Manual. Bloop http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?p=211488#post211488 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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