Lady J. or Lilith?

[Blacktao]

Like the title says:

I'm thinking of starting with a new Crew, but I don't know wich one to take. I like the nephilim brood of Lilith, but the death marshals are really great.

So I'm gonna ask you guys for some sit rep about Lilith (Neverborn) and Lady J (Guild).

grtss Blacktao

[tenabrae]

They have a pretty similar feel. Lilith probably requires a bit more finesse but they're both very solid box sets with great potential for cheap expansion.

If you prefer a ranged option, LJ, Lillith has no real real ranged, but if you like to get stuck right into melee, Lillith all the way.

[Rathnard]

Well both Lady Justice and Lilith are Melee-centric Masters, so in a very general sense they have the same sort of playstyle. They do differ in a few key aspects though.

While both are not particularly easy to kill, Lady Justice has more wounds and is better able to resist Willpower-based spells from undead, while Lilith is better against Defense-based attacks. Generally the attacks that do damage usually do so through a models Defense, but Willpower-based spells and abilities are potentially more powerful, depending on the situation (for instance, getting pulled out of melee or off an objective can be potentially game-losing).

Both Lilith and Lady Justice are well known for their fearsome damage output in melee, but Lady Justice edges out in this regard thanks to her triggers and abilities. Unlike Lilith, Lady Justice also has a ranged attack in the form of pistols. Conversely, Lilith is much, much quicker than Lady Justice and can ignore cover and severe terrain with ease.

In terms of Crew support, Lady Justice has a number of direct buffs that can improve her minions combat abilities. She also has a few bonuses against undead models. Lilith also supports her crew, but not to the degree that lady justice does and it's in a much more subtle way. Lilith can help collect and generate blood tokens, which her minions can use to grow into larger, more powerful minions. She also has a couple of movement based spells that help get her own crew into position and isolate her opponents crew.

Liliths typical crew are best described as glass cannons. Her Nephilim are very fast with a high damage output in melee, but they're not able to take much damage in return. Lady Justice's crew is somewhat more flexible. Her Death Marshalls are anti-undead, but are resiliant minions with an excellent ranged attack and the ability to buff nearby friendly models. Having said that, both Masters have the ability to take different minions for a different kind of crew. However unlike Lady Justice, Lilith's crew tends to be best made up of Nephilim, which while always being fast, also tend to be fragile.

Hope that helps.

[Blacktao]

it was a huge help thx for that

[Doctor Amos]

As for expanding outward using the masters as a starting point, there are a few things to consider. First, the Guild edges out all other factions for ranged damage output. Ortegas, Guild Guard, Austringers, and the like can overpower just about anything at range. Justice herself is good in a close scrap, but she provides the killing stroke to a Guild fireline.

Neverborne, on the other hand, rely on thier strengths: movement and control. Dipping into woes or nightmares gives you a wide array of options for meddeling in your opponant's affairs. No Guild force coul ever compare to the raw speed of a Neverborn list, nor can they match them for disruptive ability. Combine with Lilith's general choppiness, and you get the overall tactic of dividing an opposing force and picking them off at your leisure.

Neverborn also have more choices for big, splashy finishers (Nekima, Mature Nephelim, Teddy).

Lastly, both factions can dip equally into mercenaries. Generally, merc forces support ranged fighting (convict gunslingers, Hans, the entire Freikorps), however there are some good close-combat options as well that can support either force well.

Edited February 6, 2011 by Doctor Amos

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Lady J all the way. There is a lot of great nephlim choices with to help expand your Lilth crew. However as stated by others, Lady J can bring almost any guild minions. Death marshals are tough as nails with hard to wound and slow to die. There lack of speed is made up by decent range shooting. When Lady J kills someone her crew gets a +2 to cb. That is huge giving her a huge buff to her crew. As long as you save her as for defense flips she is tough as nails to kill that is because of reposte. You pull the trigger off you are going to hit back. With her damage output she can easily kill minions with one hit. Since she has a plus to damage flip giving her a natural flip allow her to cheat giving her a possible 6 damage on a whiff. Rarely does Lady J need to use as for strikes because of sword play. She can get her cb to 9-11. It is hard to miss anything even masters with cb 11.

I also like to use my totem to give some crew melee expert +1.

With all that said Lilth is going to get in melee faster and her 8 defense makes her hard to strike. Her trigger makes her a lot more harder to kill. Keep in mind Lilth is more likely to be backed up by her minions.

Outside of her combat prowess my favorite quality of Lady J is..."Justice is blind."

[Q'iq'el]

Lilith compensates her relative lack of access to ranged abilities with excellent terrain mastery. Her being fast is understatement, considering her entire crew tends to be flying or even floating and can charge without LoS (which allows them to hide behind terrain till the last moment). Lilith herself can again strike through terrain/walls with the new wording of her Master of Malifaux rule.

In other words her weakness to WP and ranged attacks is largely compensated by the fact the opponent should not be able to get LoS to her or her minions before they charge into melee. This is perfectly possible on any solid table with recommended amount of terrain.

In other words, Lady J crew may seem more resilient and flexible, but with some practice Lilith can work around her weaknesses by using her movement abilities and proper positioning, which is by no means inferior on a typical Malifaux table (but will of course be a detriment if you have too little terrain on your tables).

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Keep in mind many of her minions are height 3 I don't think all boards are going to provide enough height 3 cover. My arguments are not that Lady J is the better and more competitive master but her play style along with her crew make her more versatile. There not a lot of shooty crews in the first place, most crews rely on melee for large damage outpout. Guild provide the ability to soften your opponent before they make it to melee.

[Q'iq'el]

Keep in mind many of her minions are height 3 I don't think all boards are going to provide enough height 3 cover.

Many?

Mature Nephilim only. And these days you hardly take more than 1 (at least in the initial stage). Nekima and the Hooded Rider are another high models, but they are highly optional for typical Lilith crew (the whole Nekima+BB shaman is only for the avid converters right now anyway).

If you are faced with a board with little ht 2+ terrain, you simply don't take mature and stack on Young Nephilim and Terror Tots instead. You can Mature one of them into the big guy once you join melee and thus avoid the risk in the initial turns.

Height is an issue only if you stand behind covering terrain - typical hedges and low walls are ht 1 and give no cover to Mature Nephilim. If you then consider it works only within 1" of the feature anyway, it becomes quite obvious obscuring terrain is not what Mature Nephilim (or any other crew member) should be looking for. These features are good for shooters who want LoS and cover at the same time. With Lilith you have to go for full LoS block or at the very least obscuring terrain (the fact that you can charge without LoS is kind of a strong hint in that direction).

A proper terrain with trees, rocky outcrops, hills, houses or forests will have a lot of terrain which blocks LoS altogether. Even Illusionary Forest blocks LoS completely (remember that 3" rule for obscuring terrain works only for models inside it, if you are behind, the LoS is blocked altogether regardless of the obscuring terrain's width).

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Many?

Mature Nephilim only. And these days you hardly take more than 1 (at least in the initial stage). Nekima and the Hooded Rider are another high models, but they are highly optional for typical Lilith crew (the whole Nekima+BB shaman is only for the avid converters right now anyway).

If you are faced with a board with little ht 2+ terrain, you simply don't take mature and stack on Young Nephilim and Terror Tots instead. You can Mature one of them into the big guy once you join melee and thus avoid the risk in the initial turns.

I understand, maturing them is better point wise. Ok waist the turns and slows you down and gives time for me to complete my objective because that is how you win. Granted Young are fierce

Height is an issue only if you stand behind covering terrain - typical hedges and low walls are ht 1 and give no cover to Mature Nephilim. If you then consider it works only within 1" of the feature anyway, it becomes quite obvious obscuring terrain is not what Mature Nephilim (or any other crew member) should be looking for. These features are good for shooters who want LoS and cover at the same time. With Lilith you have to go for full LoS block or at the very least obscuring terrain (the fact that you can charge without LoS is kind of a strong hint in that direction).

Any good shooter will take the AP to get the height advantage. I always put Nino high, so cover doesn't matter. If there is height to hide behind than there is height to stand on.

A proper terrain with trees, rocky outcrops, hills, houses or forests will have a lot of terrain which blocks LoS altogether. Even Illusionary Forest blocks LoS completely (remember that 3" rule for obscuring terrain works only for models inside it, if you are behind, the LoS is blocked altogether regardless of the obscuring terrain's width).

As masters they are very similar but as crews they are extremely different.

[Justin]

Viktoria...?

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Valid addition into the options. Great thing about Viks is they get you to collect mercenaries.

[Thunder_God]

You guys do know that if there's height 2 cover, then a height 2 model can't draw LoS over it, right?

LoS blocking is checked by the acting model's height, cover bonus is checked by the target. A height 3 model can stand behind a height 2 wall, and a height 2 model can't shoot it.

Page 24 of the main rulebook, and there seems to be no pertinent errata or FAQ.

[Q'iq'el]

I understand, maturing them is better point wise. Ok waist the turns and slows you down and gives time for me to complete my objective because that is how you win. Granted Young are fierce

Seriously, we are not speaking about some Mature-a-thon BB-shaman crews here. It takes 1AP for a Melee Expert Young to become a Mature. He'll still have 2 Strikes if he does it after joining a multi-turn melee fight. That's nothing AP wise (card cost is actually more of a hit, but it is easier to Mature a YN than to Grow a TT), while it protects the model both from shooting, and at least partially from Wp attacks (slightly better stats, easier to block LoS).

Besides, in the games where you don't have terrain to take Mature, you stack on Terror Tots. Your AP budget is actually higher than in the games where you use a Mature or two. No loss here.

Any good shooter will take the AP to get the height advantage. I always put Nino high, so cover doesn't matter. If there is height to hide behind than there is height to stand on.

Sorry, but that is no more than a theoryfaux argument. Not all terrain is climbable, not always you can deploy on the roofs. Even when you can do that, lilith crew will still retain considerable advantage in negotiating terrain over most ranged/guild crews always. Moreover, she can pull you down from the roof (and even hurt you in the process, if it is done with Lure, Earthquake, Wing Buffet or anything pushy), but you may have hard time getting back there (esp. if the terrain was non-climbable to begin with).

I'm not saying Lady J is a worse master, but there's a reason why Lilith is still considered one of the best masters in the game - she is fierce and the choice between her and Lady J is the choice of playstyle, not a choice of better master.

Edited February 7, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Q'iq'el]

You guys do know that if there's height 2 cover, then a height 2 model can't draw LoS over it, right?

LoS blocking is checked by the acting model's height, cover bonus is checked by the target. A height 3 model can stand behind a height 2 wall, and a height 2 model can't shoot it.

Page 24 of the main rulebook, and there seems to be no pertinent errata or FAQ.

We're probably just days away from the new ruleset which, hopefully, will fix all the LoS oddities once and for all.

For the time being, however, it is not that simple. If you want to go that deep into this, you need to look not only at the errata, but also at the rulings on these forums.

IIRC, if any model of the two is of equal or higher Ht than the obstacle, you can draw LoS. If a model is standing on elevation, you add elevation to its Ht (making it almost impossible to hide from it, if it is high enough). If a model seeking cover is 3x higher than the covering terrain, it gets no cover.

The last rule affects Mature Nephilim considerably often (since most random clutter on the table is Ht1) and that's what the discussion has been alluding to.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Never once have I said Lady J is better than Lilth or even impling that. You are implying she is a worst (less competitive) master that is what is being known as one of the neat master. And I agree but my whole point is Lady J's crew gives her more options of play. I don't she Lilth taking a woe crew, while Lady J can take a witchling crew and play just as effective with her death marshals.

I am just stating some tactics to play against her since there stats are very similar.

Theoryfaux are you kidding. You and your opponent decide the qualities of terrain. For example: If I am playing in a forest I am going to ask for rocks or some trees to be climbable.

On the whole blood counter. You are still not going to make it across the board in turn 1 especially if you have to waist an AP. I agree 2 melee from either young or mature is a threat. You also seem to state you will be in melee for a turn than mature than get 2 strikes. It can happen but that is banking on winning activation. You are also applying the same theoryfaux I am, that there will be enough cover to hide behind to make it across the board without being in a fire lane. Your opponent and you should have equal say to terrain setup. All this is pointing out some tactics. Tactics are plastic.

[Q'iq'el]

Equal say doesn't mean under-developed terrain. The terrain should roughly have 18~30+ features on it and that means firing lanes are always going to be very limited. And rightly so - there should be little place for pure ranged crews in Malifaux, because the crews in general are too small to absorb damage at range. The terrain is what keeps ranged builds at bay in this game and if you use too little terrain, you always put non-ranged crews at disadvantage.

As for staying in melee longer than a turn... sure thing. Happens all the time. Of course you won't do it against someone who can kill multiple models in one turn, but Nephilim operate by ganging up on weaker opponents and it's not hard at all to send 3~4 Nephilim against 2 opponents and have the fight last longer than one turn (especially if other side heals and/or tries to bring reinforcements). In fact, the longer the fight lasts, the better for Nephilim as they can defend themselves in melee well enough. Last but not least, I was merely commenting on your suggestion that Maturing your Young Nephilim later in the game is somehow a disadvantageous approach that costs AP. It doesn't harm you because Tots and Young are generally faster than other models (so you can get to the objectives early enough either way) and you do not sacrifice much in terms of offensive power by maturing later. If the opponent avoids melee, you can Mature behind some larger terrain or otherwise - Blood Tokens don't have to be on the model which casts the spell (in fact more often than not they will be on Lilith anyway) and it is less about avoiding ranged attacks altogether and more about avoiding focused fire from the turn 1.

Never once have I said Lady J is better than Lilth or even impling that.

Let me remind you: "Lady J all the way...". If I came strong on Lilith side, it is simply because I was trying to provide alternative opinion to your pretty one-sided post on Lady J behalf.

Edited February 8, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Jimp]

Never once have I said Lady J is better than Lilth or even impling that. You are implying she is a worst (less competitive) master that is what is being known as one of the neat master. And I agree but my whole point is Lady J's crew gives her more options of play. I don't she Lilth taking a woe crew, while Lady J can take a witchling crew and play just as effective with her death marshals.

I am just stating some tactics to play against her since there stats are very similar.

Theoryfaux are you kidding. You and your opponent decide the qualities of terrain. For example: If I am playing in a forest I am going to ask for rocks or some trees to be climbable.

On the whole blood counter. You are still not going to make it across the board in turn 1 especially if you have to waist an AP. I agree 2 melee from either young or mature is a threat. You also seem to state you will be in melee for a turn than mature than get 2 strikes. It can happen but that is banking on winning activation. You are also applying the same theoryfaux I am, that there will be enough cover to hide behind to make it across the board without being in a fire lane. Your opponent and you should have equal say to terrain setup. All this is pointing out some tactics. Tactics are plastic.

Lady J is probably slightly less competetive then Lilith, if only for her lower surviveability.

[Rathnard]

A little less defensiveness might be in order, I think.

[micahwc]

I don't have lady J yet, and Lillith is my favorite master, so I am a little biased.

Terrain hasn't been an issue for me, but I like young nephs more than matures. They are almost as good in every way, they cost less and they can do more damage with flay. They are also height 2, and have diving attack.

I will use mature to get mature nephilim, but I usually don't purchase them to start. I think a young, an extra tot, and an extra soul stone are a better bargain 95% of the time.

Lady J has guns, which is a valid argument. But in 3 fights against the ortegas with Lillith I have killed Nino by turn 2 three times, and have never been shot by him. Lucky initiative flips, Lure on Lilitu, transposition, and diving attack have made this possible. Guns are nice, but you can plan for them.

Illusionary forest blocks line of sight for non-neverborn models, and Lillith doesn't need line of sight to cast transposition because of her Master of Malifaux rule.

[nix]

I play both, and I must say Lady J is my favorite. I do have to back up Rathnards initial response in this thread however, as its right on mark.

They are similar play styles between the two masters, and really the crew composition sets them apart. Some little things here and there:

• Lady J's start box is fairly complete to play straight from the box
  
• Lilith's box really needs at least a blister of Youngs to go with it, as you will likely grow one of the tots.
  
• Both boxes are 19 stones, both masters are 4 cache. This means in both crews your losing at least 2 stone in a 25 point game
  
• Most of the guild models you would take as additional crew are already released
  
• There are still Nephalim models to be released at this time
  
• The release schedule seems fairly aggressive, no issues here
  
• Lady J's abilities benefit the entire compliment of Guild models (not just death marshals)
  
• Lilith's abilities (a fair number of them) only benefit other Nephalim. There are more than Nephalim in the Neverborn Faction (Nightmares, Woes, Puppets, etc)
  

At the end of the day, I switch back and forth fairly regularly, but my preference is for Lady J. This is for no other reason than I like the way the model looks more than the Lilith model.

[micahwc]

In reply to Nix I would state that there are only two unreleased Nephilim models at this point, and while they will be awesome, they are by no means neccisary to running a Lillith crew.

"Most of the guild models you would take as additional crew are already released" Switch "guild" with "neverborn" and the argument works for both sides. The key word being "most".

The two unreleased nephilim will be coming out in April, which gets closer every day.

Lillith only has two nephilim specific abilities. Blood from stone and broodmother. Broodmother is nice, but it has been my experience that blood from stone is highly situational. Lillith has other abilities that work with any neverborn, including transposition and illusionary forest. Illusionary forsest works very well with waldgeists, which are not nephilim.

Lady J versus Lillith in appearance is an oppinion, I like them both.

I will agree that you should get a blister of young with Lillith. It is a very valid point.

[nix]

In reply to Nix I would state that there are only two unreleased Nephilim models at this point, and while they will be awesome, they are by no means necessary to running a Lillith crew.

"Most of the guild models you would take as additional crew are already released" Switch "guild" with "neverborn" and the argument works for both sides. The key word being "most".

The two unreleased nephilim will be coming out in April, which gets closer every day.

Very fair, which is why I mentioned the aggressive release schedule as neither a plus or a minus. All I was pointing out was that Today (mid-Feb) there were still some nephilim that were not out.

Lillith only has two nephilim specific abilities. Blood from stone and broodmother. Broodmother is nice, but it has been my experience that blood from stone is highly situational. Lillith has other abilities that work with any neverborn, including transposition and illusionary forest. Illusionary forest works very well with waldgeists, which are not nephilim.

To be fair this is mostly true, but partly incorrect. Here is what I was looking at in better detail:

- Brood Mother - psuedo companion for Nephilim.

- Drain Blood - blood tokens only benefit Nephilim

- Blood from stone - same (and I agree, situational)

- Illusionary Forest - Nephilim get to ignore movement penalties from this forest

Also, Nephilim do not benefit from the abilities woes have, and are affected (because they are living) by Terrifying, which Nightmares can dole out.

Now, this is not to say that the other models in the Neverborn faction cannot work with Lilith, just that there are area where synergy is lacking. With Lady J, all of her abilities have synergy regardless of what else in the Guild you pair her with.

Lady J versus Lillith in appearance is an opinion, I like them both.

I will agree that you should get a blister of young with Lillith. It is a very valid point.

I do strongly agree that it really comes down to appearance of the crew. If I gave an indication otherwise, I communicated poorly. I think they are fairly evenly matched, with the positive/negative comparison really coming out fairly neutral.

At the end of the day, do what I did and buy them both!

[micahwc]

"At the end of the day, do what I did and buy them both!"

This is probably the best advice.

[Thunder_God]

nix, the errata had changed terrifying to only affect enemy models.