Who are the Three Worst Masters?

[Justin]

Sure, but to allow for weaker Masters and stronger Masters creates a funnel effect that will ensure that some Masters always show up at tournaments, and some never do.

This is true.

But if all masters were equal, what would I play when I demo? What about people who like a challenge?

Nothing wrong with always seeing the same three masters in competitive play. Others will be there too. And competitive players...tend not to care much.

[tadaka]

I think wyrd has all ready gone with a little of both. Levi took a couple needed nurfs to knock him down a little and some of the masters who were on the low side of things got some new toys to help bring them up to speed.

[Jonas Albrecht]

This is true.

But if all masters were equal, what would I play when I demo? What about people who like a challenge?

Nothing wrong with always seeing the same three masters in competitive play. Others will be there too. And competitive players...tend not to care much.

Chess players do just fine teaching with two sets of the exact same pieces.

We disagree. If the competitive field consists of large blocks of the same lists, the field stagnates.

And that door swings both ways. I like a challenge, and that has resulted in me personally Cuddling The Ortegas. The logic follows that I should just switch Masters, but I got into Malifaux for the Wild West aspect. No one personifies that better than the Ortegas, but they are, by most accounts, a horribly broken team.

Balance makes and breaks games. Large shifts in playability should always, always, be accounted for.

Edited December 15, 2010 by Jonas Albrecht

[Justin]

Chess players do just fine teaching with two sets of the exact same pieces.

We disagree. If the competitive field consists of large blocks of the same lists, the field stagnates.

And that door swings both ways. I like a challenge, and that has resulted in me personally nerfing The Ortegas. The logic follows that I should just switch Masters, but I got into Malifaux for the Wild West aspect. No one personifies that better than the Ortegas, but they are, by most accounts, a horribly broken team.

Balance makes and breaks games. Large shifts in playability should always, always, be accounted for.

Chess players also do just fine having tournaments with only two sets of pieces. Malifaux has more viable tournament lists than that, so it's not a fair example. Not a similar game at all.

And the tournament scene will never stagnate. Not the highly competitive end of it anyway. There will always be new combos, new discoveries. Every little errata shifts certain masters in and others out. All mini games are like that.

As for Perdita, I don't think she's that broken, actually. I'd take Lilith over the Ortegas any day. Or Levi. Probably even Hamelin. Now if you're facing Sommer and Marcus all the time I can see your point, but you can always buy a second force and break out the Ortegas for the more "top tier" masters. And if you still refuse to get a second force, well, I wouldn't go switching the game balance because a few people don't want to buy a second master. This game is fairly cheap, and the components fairly interchangeable in between crews.

It's all about how much of a rift there is in playability. Sommer is, on the average, weaker than other crews. I'm totally cool with that. I do well with him. Now, before book 2 came out, he was nigh unplayable. That is not acceptable: not because it's unfair, but because the game is boring. If I know the outcome, why play? As things stand (after book 2), yeah, Sommer is probably at a bit of a disadvantage, but I don't mind so long as there is a reasonable chance.

So, yes, large shifts in playability should be accounted for. Shifts large enough to make the outcome a foregone conclusion. But shifts that are simply large enough to make for a tough match up need to be left in. It's a part of the game. There is always a rock paper scissors dynamic. Always a bad match up.

And there is one point I have not even touched on at all: balancing this game so all masters are relatively equal is, quite frankly, impossible. There are too many permutations, too many abilities and models. Too many different scenarios that may be played. And, at the end of the day, terrain is another huge factor, and designers have absolutely zero control over that. To use the chess example again, they use all the same pieces, which all have the exact same rules, on an evenly spaced board with no element of chance (like cards). And even in chess you could argue going first throws the game off. We could bring Malifaux to that level, but I get the distinct impression people will not be very happy when there is only one crew and no more cards.

Edited December 15, 2010 by Justin

[Ratty]

We could bring Malifaux to that level, but I get the distinct impression people will not be very happy when there is only one crew and no more cards.

Hmm.. tell me more about this game, it sounds interesting. Though just for a bit of a thought experiment.

[Justin]

Hmm.. tell me more about this game, it sounds interesting. Though just for a bit of a thought experiment.

Buy a chess set and swap out all the boring pieces with nicely painted Malifaux stuff.

[tadaka]

All ready working on my levi vs kirai set

[Justin]

All ready working on my levi vs kirai set

That's awesome.

Pics when you're done.

[tadaka]

I will be sure to post but it will be a wile. Few months at least untill I can get the lost love as king. Still need a few more parts but those are all available just need to get them finished painting. Went with those masters as they were one of the few I actualy wanted 8 of some models.

Edited December 15, 2010 by tadaka

[Isoulle]

Chess players do just fine teaching with two sets of the exact same pieces.

We disagree. If the competitive field consists of large blocks of the same lists, the field stagnates.

And that door swings both ways. I like a challenge, and that has resulted in me personally Cuddling The Ortegas. The logic follows that I should just switch Masters, but I got into Malifaux for the Wild West aspect. No one personifies that better than the Ortegas, but they are, by most accounts, a horribly broken team.

Balance makes and breaks games. Large shifts in playability should always, always, be accounted for.

No argument here. It is however very difficult to balance everything and I think the people at Wyrd have done a much better job than most people. Is this game perfectly balanced? No. But I do believe there is a large variety of powerful lists and a very large variety of playable lists, far more so than most games I've played.

Besides, that is what second editions are for. (Worked for Warmachine... Yes I know I said its name)

[nilus]

I have said it many times. It's not a matter if good or bad. It's a matter or learning curve. Perdita is a lot easier to play and very forgiving to players. Other masters are not.

Honestly if there was one list or master to rule them all then we'd see it at tourneys. As far as the 9 or so tourneys I have played and/or ran in the Chicago land area I have not seen a trend like this. We have see winners from all factions playing most Masters.

[Doctor Amos]

Marcus- 6

Teeth - 5

Ramos-2

Viki - 2

Lady J, McM, Levi, and Criid - 1

Ranking systems are stupid ~ 8

[Jonas Albrecht]

Besides, that is what second editions are for. (Worked for Warmachine... Yes I know I said its name)

I would be lying if I were to claim no curiosity as to what Malifaux 2nd edition will look like.

[Sliver Chocobo]

I would be lying if I were to claim no curiosity as to what Malifaux 2nd edition will look like.

As would I

[nilus]

I would be lying if I were to claim no curiosity as to what Malifaux 2nd edition will look like.

I hope that its some sort of digital book transmitted directly to our brains via data jack.

In other words, its something far in the future.

[Jonas Albrecht]

I hope that its some sort of digital book transmitted directly to our brains via data jack.

In other words, its something far in the future.

Agreed. Its not something I want announced at the next GenCon.

[Justin]

I hope that its some sort of digital book transmitted directly to our brains via data jack.

In other words, its something far in the future.

I hope they use dice.

[Justin]

I kid...I kid...

Don't hurt me.

[Gensuke626]

I kid...I kid...

Don't hurt me.

If by dice you mean to chop things into tiny bitty pieces, then I agree with you.