Lelu and Lilitu stratagies

[Doctor Amos]

Just a reminder: Nekima loves Phil & Lil. Regeneration bolsters them if one or the other dies, and adding :masks gives you flay or Double Take for essentially free. Double take is great, it really is, but the minimum 4 damage poison 2 flaying claws make me unreasonably happy.

[Gruesome]

I have a couple basic questions of them... In one of the early posts in this thread, it was mentioned that they can be healing 4wd a turn and I was wondering how.

On a related note, for "Same Malignant Force", since Lelu's regeneration is not "a friendly Lelitu", does that mean that a Lelitu basically shares his regeneration?

[Doctor Amos]

Si.

[Wodschow]

I have a couple basic questions of them... In one of the early posts in this thread, it was mentioned that they can be healing 4wd a turn and I was wondering how.

On a related note, for "Same Malignant Force", since Lelu's regeneration is not "a friendly Lelitu", does that mean that a Lelitu basically shares his regeneration?

That and Lilitu is a friendly model within 2" of herself, and she isn't a Lelu either.

[Islington]

Im not sure people are realising just how insanely powerful lure is. It has so so many more uses than just pulling an enemy model closer to you which is good enough just by itself. Take into account schemes that require you to be in a particular area or near a piece of terrain, the ability to pull your own models out of combat or move them up the field or back towards your deployment area, and finaly think about what happens when you lure a model off the top of a building. Yah falling damage hurts.

Oh and there are only 13 cards in your entire deck that wont succesfuly cast the spell. Combine a Liltu with nekima for the xtra mask on the casting value and you can pretty much guarentee that the tartgeted model will be in base contact with Liltu for 1ap. Double take triggers wether or not your opponent resists the spell or not. So you just flip cards till you run into a 3, 2, or 1 which you cheat. The only thing that will stop you is the black joker in which case you just cast the spell again with your 1 remaining ap. You can pull your opponents master 18in across the board on turn 2 and then anhilate him fairly easy.

Personaly the only thing that keeps this from desprately needing errata is that nekima, lelu, and liltu cost 27 points together. If your playing in a large size game this is just completely broken.

[Wodschow]

Im not sure people are realising just how insanely powerful lure is. It has so so many more uses than just pulling an enemy model closer to you which is good enough just by itself.

Amen to that.

Double take triggers wether or not your opponent resists the spell or not.

Was already fixed to only work on failed resists

It's on her card.

[Q'iq'el]

From the traditional Nephilim type of Lilith crew perspective, I can see taking 2 Lilitu, but not 2 Lelu. 1 of each is probably the best though.

If any of them dies, they can transform one of Terror Tots or even Young Nephilim into the lost partner, so there's no worry of taking unnecessary wounds. Other than that, Lelu is simply a bit slow for Nephilim crew. 1 doesn't hurt, but he doesn't fit very well either. Lilitu's support spells are all awesome though.

Emotionally Exposed, if I'm not mistaken, helps Nephilim and Lilith to cut through all sorts of protections like Harmless or Irresistible. Taking into consideration how weak their Wp normally is, and how such defensive abilities have propagated, having a Lilitu in your crew becomes almost a necessity these days.

Impure Thoguhts Is a bag of tools Lilith just loves. Originally she had similar set of toys with her Cherub and Waldgeist (immpobilise and deny the chance to attack back), but Lilitu cuts to the chase - straight out Paralyzed, :-fate debuff to Damage Flips or Card/SS drain.

Lure has already been discussed in length, but just like Paralyzed, it is one of the best tools to have for a crew fighting a positional fight.

Out of Lelu's abilities, from my personal experience, only "Punish Me" is really good for the crew. Hard to Wound/Kill is how tougher undead and other models defend themselves from heavy hitters Lilith brings to play. Until Lelu there was no way to counter it, but to bring more models to fight. Now we can dispatch some of the toughest models in one turn, if we soften them up with Lelu first.

As I said, Lelu is slowish and situational for Lilith crew. Lilitu is absolutely awesome and I don't think bringing two would hurt (personally I own only one).

Edited January 10, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[karn987]

As I said, Lelu is slowish and situational for Lilith crew.

I think someone forgot about Transposition, Lure, Earthquake, Carry, Wing Buffet, etc ;D

Lelu is slow with his base stats, but Lilith can get any model where she wants it without much ease. His speed barely even matters with her as it does with the Dreamer. Heck as I'm sure you know, worse comes to worse you just Lure a model into Lelu.

We are Neverborn after all. Things are never as they seem with us, their is always at least one trick up our sleeve.

If your not playing Blood Counter abuse (which I hope your not), Lelu is a better option then a Young Nephilim, especially when paired with a Lilitu it is absolutely a better choice.

But that said... I do agree that I would not take 2 Lelu, but I would not take 2 Lilitu either. I firmly believe the strongest mix is 1 or 2 sets of Lelu + Lilitu and not just doubles of one of them. They work fantastically well together and are well worth the 14ss for both of them.

[Q'iq'el]

I think someone forgot about Transposition, Lure, Earthquake, Carry, Wing Buffet, etc ;D

Not really. I'm just being relative here. Lelu costs is comparable to Young Nephilim, two Terror Tots and a Mature Nephilim isn't that far off. Young Nephilim and Lelu's fighting power is nearly identical, with Lelu being a bit more survivable with all the healing. However Tots, Young and Mature, all have formidably better mobility just on their own with no help and no need to steal Lilith actions.

In other words, yeah, Lilith can counter Lelu's weakness, but there's no major benefit to taking more than one Lelu (in pure fighting role, in Lilith crew, Young Nephilim will do better for less and Tots will provide cheaper bodies to Grow or to use to summon Lelu/Lilitu). And that was my point.

Lelu is slow with his base stats, but Lilith can get any model where she wants it without much ease. His speed barely even matters with her as it does with the Dreamer. Heck as I'm sure you know, worse comes to worse you just Lure a model into Lelu.

I was under impression that the Dreamer is the one who doesn't care about lack of speed on Lelu's part. Isn't it the troop transport of Malifaux, dropping them where needed?

We are Neverborn after all. Things are never as they seem with us, their is always at least one trick up our sleeve.

If your not playing Blood Counter abuse (which I hope your not), Lelu is a better option then a Young Nephilim, especially when paired with a Lilitu it is absolutely a better choice.

I'm not convinced. I'd take 2 Lelitu easily, I think it'd be waste to take 2 Lelu.

First of all, even if I use Mature Nephilim or Lilith to counter his slowness, the more Lelus I take, the more I have to invest into it. It's like elevators in high-rise architecture, except that the point where you can't go any further comes pretty quick (IMHO 2 Lelus are too much, but at least one can still handle them )

Secondly, Lilith loves guerilla style dispersed movement tactics and multi-vectored attacks - with models moving independently and converging on targets (actually you try to move so that you have multiple targets to converge on and the opponent doesn't know which is your real target).

Lelu not only doesn't fit the style, but he actually gives away the focal point of the operation, if he moves on his own (because he is slow and has to get into position in advance). Even if you carry him, he still be too slow to take part in a blitz charge to take out something big. Lure and Transposition can help of course, but require extra effort to set it up (very bad for this style of fighting, and can give out your plan to the opponent very easily).

At least Brood still works for Lelu, but he's less likely to be in range on time, than other Nephilim.

But that said... I do agree that I would not take 2 Lelu, but I would not take 2 Lilitu either. I firmly believe the strongest mix is 1 or 2 sets of Lelu + Lilitu and not just doubles of one of them. They work fantastically well together and are well worth the 14ss for both of them.

I use 1:1 right now, I just think for Lilith it makes more sense to add second Lelitu (in big games) than second Lelu. For example 6 casts of Impure Thoughts can seriously mess up someone's hand and SS cache (assuming even as few as 1~2 gets through, the opponent still has to cheat the Rst duels to protect himself) - something Lilith can't normally do.

Obviously 6 casts of Lure would be an overkill most of the time, but if you take 2 Lilitu it'd be to cast 3~4 Lures and still have access to their other spells. In game big enough, that makes sense for me.

In case of Lelu, there's just nothing he brings that I'd want a second set of, in Lilith crew.

Edited January 10, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[karn987]

Not really. I'm just being relative here. Lelu costs is comparable to Young Nephilim, two Terror Tots and a Mature Nephilim isn't that far off. Young Nephilim and Lelu's fighting power is nearly identical, with Lelu being a bit more survivable with all the healing. However Tots, Young and Mature, all have formidably better mobility just on their own with no help and no need to steal Lilith actions.

Well since you didn't mention them and the ways that you can easily compensate for the slow speed stats I felt I should mention it.

The 3 original Nephilim do have more speed to them, but Lelu can do nearly identical damage to the Young as you said and has much more versatility thanks to his spells. That healing is a huge deal since if you play carefully and avoid letting something get multiple attacks off on him in one turn.. well he can heal that all up rather easily.

In other words, yeah, Lilith can counter Lelu's weakness, but there's no major benefit to taking more than one Lelu (in pure fighting role, in Lilith crew, Young Nephilim will do better for less and Tots will provide cheaper bodies to Grow or to use to summon Lelu/Lilitu). And that was my point.

Ahh but that is all a matter of perspective because your not including the Healing ability of Lelu and his spell damage and his abilities damage (and lets not forget the alpha strike ability). He can deal most damage then the Young and will last longer then it most likely. Sure he doesn't make terribly good use of Blood Counters, but Lilith's synergies is with ANY powerful melee monster since her several of her best abilities are movement based. So any model that can make use of Transposition and Earthquake can be said to be a model that works well with her.

Then of course there is brood Mother which can trigger a chain reaction of Companions with Lelu's and Lilitus and lead to a devastating Alpha strike that matches the Ortega's. That certainly gives them a leg up over the 3 original Nephilim my friend =D

Yes their is no major benefit of taking more then 1 Lelu just like their isn't one with taking another Young, Mature etc. The benefit is more killing power and the fact is Lelu is stronger then the Young and will last longer in the average situation. So personally, if I already have a Lilitu then 2 Lelu is a more powerful option then 2 young because of the alpha strike chain you can do and the prodigious healing of the Lelu's and their higher damage. The draw back will be slightly degraded maneuverability which Lilith and Lilitu can make up for.

I was under impression that the Dreamer is the one who doesn't care about lack of speed on Lelu's part. Isn't it the troop transport of Malifaux, dropping them where needed?

I think you misread what I said... I said that the Dreamer is a master like Lilith in that they both greatly compensate for models speed and maneuverability. So basically, I said what you said heh =)

I'm not convinced. I'd take 2 Lelitu easily, I think it'd be waste to take 2 Lelu.

First of all, even if I use Mature Nephilim or Lilith to counter his slowness, the more Lelus I take, the more I have to invest into it. It's like elevators in high-rise architecture, except that the point where you can't go any further comes pretty quick (IMHO 2 Lelus are too much, but at least one can still handle them )

That is a very valid point. But Lilitu plays very well with Lelu which I know your aware of and her Lure compensates for Lelu's speed. Just Lure his targets to him and go nuts on your lunch. Lelu and Lilitu are simply not models meant to be taken alone and used without support, they have holes in them that the other half fills very nicely.

To me, your point is very valid but its the same thing with many many models. Look at Sorrows, their isn't a ton of point to them without Pandora or other Wp generating models. So they need that support and provide that support. Basically, it's just part of the game and I think its a smart thing to assume a model wont be around all game. So at the start of the game Lilith could be used to Transposition Lelu's with Tots etc and get them into position. Once one dies or is now in melee etc, she can then enter melee herself, letting her crew break their line and letting her easily take the head off the enemy crew.

Secondly, Lilith loves guerilla style dispersed movement tactics and multi-vectored attacks - with models moving independently and converging on targets (actually you try to move so that you have multiple targets to converge on and the opponent doesn't know which is your real target).

Lelu not only doesn't fit the style, but he actually gives away the focal point of the operation, if he moves on his own (because he is slow and has to get into position in advance). Even if you carry him, he still be too slow to take part in a blitz charge to take out something big. Lure and Transposition can help of course, but require extra effort to set it up (very bad for this style of fighting, and can give out your plan to the opponent very easily).

Ahhh but they can easily. You use Tots to get into position and then switch them with Lelu and you still have the same multi-vector attack. Yeah you have to use Tots as place holders for their positions but that means you have Tots for later on and can start using the Blood that the Lelu's will gather with gusto for you.

But Lilith also works very well with a multi wave style attack. Her models are heavy melee and thus are limited by their reach. So the first wave breaks the front line and the second wave takes the head off the crew and the support models. So that second wave is when Lelu's can be useful, just as they can be in the first wave. They are durable so they will last a while in the thick of it.

You can also play a hit and run style list where Lilitu's and Transposition play a big role. Lure pulls a model down to your lines and a Companioned Lelu eats the model once it gets their. Then Transposition can be used to switch a Lelu with another model in your opponents crew and achieve 2 goals with 1 spell. Goal 1: Lelu is now in their lines and if he was Brood Mothered (which he should be) can attack and get the jump on them. Goal 2: that model you switched is now in your lines and can be nailed by the Companioned Lilitu from the first Lelu and then Companion the 2nd Lelu to finish off that model if needed.

So I think we both realize, Lelu could be any of the beat-stick models in most of these situations. BUT there is no substitution for that Alpha strike ability of 2 Lelus and a Lilitu.

At least Brood still works for Lelu, but he's less likely to be in range on time, than other Nephilim.

All depends on how you play your Lilith. You don't always have to run full tilt into your opponent, most of the time its better not to. But I do agree, he is slightly less lightly to be in range then the other Nephilim.

I use 1:1 right now, I just think for Lilith it makes more sense to add second Lelitu (in big games) than second Lelu. For example 6 casts of Impure Thoughts can seriously mess up someone's hand and SS cache (assuming even as few as 1~2 gets through, the opponent still has to cheat the Rst duels to protect himself) - something Lilith can't normally do.

Obviously 6 casts of Lure would be an overkill most of the time, but if you take 2 Lilitu it'd be to cast 3~4 Lures and still have access to their other spells. In game big enough, that makes sense for me.

In case of Lelu, there's just nothing he brings that I'd want a second set of, in Lilith crew.

Well that is the difference between our views on him then. I value that Alpha Strike ability heavily and usually are fine with 1 Lilitu for Lure. I'd rather have the power of the second Lelu since I think 1 Lilitu + Lilith + totem give you enough utility to handle most crews and situations.

We both agree on a 1 to 1 mix of Lilitu + Lelu and our real disagreement over another Lelu vs another Lilitu with Lilith is just our preferred play style I think. But hey! Hopefully this has been good for a new player trying to figure out how they want to use them since we are presenting 2 equally valid diverging views on the subject.

[Q'iq'el]

Ahh but that is all a matter of perspective because your not including the Healing ability of Lelu and his spell damage and his abilities damage (and lets not forget the alpha strike ability). He can deal most damage then the Young and will last longer then it most likely. Sure he doesn't make terribly good use of Blood Counters, but Lilith's synergies is with ANY powerful melee monster since her several of her best abilities are movement based. So any model that can make use of Transposition and Earthquake can be said to be a model that works well with her.

Hmm, the way I see it, it is an issue of style rather than perspective. More staying power and more killing power are not on the high list for Lilith utility models, in my view. Well, staying power perhaps, in some scenarios, but that makes it situational.

Most of the time Lilith's crew already charges in with numerical advantage to ensure a quick kill - a model which can stay and fight is not really all that valuable, where you don't want to stay and fight (unless you switch the style and list completely, the Lelu's staying power won't help much as other Nephilim around will get shred to pieces). On the contrary - Lilith typical crew can disperse and hide after hit (hit and run tactics if you will), Lelu will stay behind, so it must be taken care of both in and out of action.

Not saying he is completely useless in such situation, because as I said he brings tools that would allow Nephilim to dispatch quickly even the tougher models they normally would have hard time tackling, but this is, again, a situational benefit.

Ahhh but they can easily. You use Tots to get into position and then switch them with Lelu and you still have the same multi-vector attack. Yeah you have to use Tots as place holders for their positions but that means you have Tots for later on and can start using the Blood that the Lelu's will gather with gusto for you.

But that is the same as using Lure or some other ability - a cost you have to weight against benefits every time you do an action. There's no added cost to a Young Nephilim's charge, even if it is slightly weaker.

So, I sacrifice a very powerful strike Lilith can make to bring in a model that can do several strikes - sometimes it's worth it, sometimes not, especially when the high card used for Transposition could be used to get severe damage strike with a trigger.

I agree with Lilith it's mostly the matter of style. Arguably, if your Lilith crew is old-style Book 1 affair, you'll get less benefit from Lelu than Lelitu. However there's also matter of flexibility - a Terror Tot can become anything you want during the combat - be it a new Lelu, new Young or even a Mature over the course of combat. A Young is not only a competent fighter, but something the opponent has to take care of as it is fast and can mature anywhere it wants to. And you can get a Lelu out of it too.

A Lelu, in contrast, is end of the line choice - you pay for him (or summon him) and you're stuck with a slow model opponent can deal with by avoiding it (as long as you don't have Transposition/Lure ready of course ). It's not necessarily a bad choice, but perhaps it isn't the one (just like 2 Mature Nephilim) you want to lock yourself down with before you even start the encounter.

[karn987]

So I think there we go. The Young fits in better with lists which use Book 1 Tactics for Lilith Primarily and Lelu fits in better when used with Book 2 models (which it was designed to ;D).

If nothing else, this has been an interesting conversation to me. Always good to hash stuff out like this.

I will address one thing though, your notion of giving up an attack with Lilith to Transposition a model. The way I see it, putting all your eggs in one basket is not the best strategy if you have options. Lilith is not Lady Justice and we know this, she hits hard but she does not hit THAT hard. Lilith almost never wants to risk a turn in combat with a model unless she has to or has something to gain from it. So I would rather let Lelu do that for me and get more attacks with him and start an Alpha Strike chain rather then Lilith make the one strike. But I think this is lay style and combat philosophy rather then cut and dry stuff.

To me, Lelu is a fantastic model doing exactly what he was designed to do when he was being designed. He's not a hyper powerful model alone, he has flaws which are made up by other models he is intended to work with. At the same time, he doesn't use up those other models full attention, just usually an Action now and then. So its an interesting switch in dynamic from the self-reliant models of Book 1.

[Islington]

Amen to that.

Was already fixed to only work on failed resists

It's on her card.

This is good to hear. Its something that really did need fixing.

Also comparing the combat effectivness of lelu with a young neph is rediculous. Lelu has paired claws, poison 2, 2in reach and a 0 action spell that does pretty high damage. They both have flay and the same damage line for their main weapons. The only thing the young neph has better than lelu for combat is cb 6 instead of cb 5 which paired more than makes up for. Luck being equal Lelu will allways do at minimum 3 points more damage to the target than the young neph would.

For pure damage output they are not equal. Lelu is far far better. He does in fact have the highest potential damage output of any nephelim model. A single serious damage claw strike with flay does 10 damage. Granted the model you hit will get at least 1 activation before it recieves the last point of damage from poison on its 2nd activation. This is still the most damage from any model we have in a single strike.

Also dont underestimate (0)drink blood. This spell can almost be thought of as another claw strike. You loose paired, poison, flay, and it requires a raven but its damage line is slightly better it heals lelu and it targets wp. Targeting wp is huge in a combat force that pretty much targets nothing but defense.

So should lelu allways be taken over a young neph. Of course not. The young is far faster and can mature. There are plenty of reasons to take the young neph over a lelu but not one of them is that he has the same combat potential as a lelu.

[micahwc]

I have two sets of the twins. Personally I like them more than the young. Lure more than makes up for the "slowness" of Lelu. Lelu still has flight. Our tables have a lot of terrain, and abilities such as flight and scout make models much quicker.

I have not fielded both sets of twins yet, but I have fielded one Lelu with two Lillitus. This was using Pandora and I wanted the extra willpower saves.

Lilith works well as a defensive master when the enemy has to come to you through rough terrain. Lelu works perfectly for this. If you are playing against a melee focused crew then his speed doesn't matter very much. If you are standing on an objective the enemy wants then his speed doesn't matter very much. There are ways to encourage the enemy to come to you.

Also remember that Lelu has his automatic two points of damage ability at the end of the turn. I forgot this my last game while he was in base-to-base with Peridita, who had 2 wounds left. I didn't cause any more wounds against her in the game and I lost, but she would have died had I remembered this ability.

Back when I used young nephilim frequently I usually used them in pairs. It is my oppinion that Lelu and Lilitu are much better for 2 stones more.

Lure also has a better range than any gun in the game as far as I remember.

[Q'iq'el]

Also comparing the combat effectivness of lelu with a young neph is rediculous. Lelu has paired claws, poison 2, 2in reach and a 0 action spell that does pretty high damage. They both have flay and the same damage line for their main weapons. The only thing the young neph has better than lelu for combat is cb 6 instead of cb 5 which paired more than makes up for.

Do they?

Paired Claws raise your chance of getting a high card (but the chance itself depends on the state of the deck too), and they counter some of the debuffs to hit (as long as you want to cheat it is pretty important to counter the odd to hit).

Cb is more complex to calculate. I think it's the easiest to think about it in terms of lowering your opponent chance of winning, where at equal stats he has 4 less winning cards in the deck and with each point of Cb he loses additional 4 cards.

Typically Df range from 2 to 6, but most models have either 4 or 5. A YN is at advantage most of the time, while Lelu is fighting his equals more often than not.

I haven't even started to play with probability calculations for Malifaux, but in this system stats go a very long way and most of the time community is being lured towards shiny flashy damage abilities, without truly appreciating the value of good old stats. It would be interesting to see some average probabilities (not against full deck) and compare the value of paired claws to 1Cb of advantage.

Damage-output wise, even with poison, both models are almost identical. YN will top out at 21, while Lelu can go to 23, but let's say right now, they are never going to be reaching these numbers in normal games. It's Lilith crew we speak about, so we want to be killing within 1 activation, that means on charge most of the time. Both models have 2 Strikes available when they charge. From experience, the YN will do some 6~12 damage (low~medium range, an odd severe, a trigger once in a while), Lelu will do 7~14 (including poison), which is not much of an advantage here.

Drink Blood is nice if you have some :crows and want to bypass high Df and Armor. Against normal minions it really shines if you can pull out a Vampiric Bite, Thirst and then cast it buffed. That is a very good way to achieve 2 things at once - fight melée with better stats than the claws and bypass high Armor. The drawback is having to win 2 duels (even if typically at solid advantage, with Cb7:masks and Ca8:crows).

But the bottomline, for me, is that my Lilith crew always moves at 10"+ a turn (and it's not necessarily because I want to get to combat ASAP - sometimes they dance around, sometimes they just mess up the opponent's angles or force him to split his crew... but the movement is your biggest advantage so I kind of have to use it). With such a crew, whatever advantage Lelu may have in delivering his damage (I agree he is more reliable than the YN, he probably won't do much more damage then YN though), is completely spoiled by the fact he won't charge something 9" away, from behind a building, with no LoS whatsoever (Lelu has Flight, but he has no Diving Attack which may be easy to overlook).

If you pair up a Lelu with YN, you can greatly increase YN damage against Hard to Wound/Kill targets by casting "Punish Me!", but if you use his movement to catch up with YN and Strike with the Claws, you're getting just 1 attack while the YN will get 2. That's why I see Lelu mostly in a support role - it comes out of practical situations I deal with on the table, rather than from theoretical fighting potential in the vacuum.

Of course you can charge YN first, then Lure the surviving target and finally charge with Lelu (or Lure Lelu, depending on positioning), but that means trading 1 Lelitu AP for 1 extra Strike on Lelu. It may be definitely worth it, but in terms of cost, it means his charge effectively uses up 3AP, not to mention other possible complications related to activation order and situation on the table (simply speaking, the more actions/activations you have to do, the harder it is to pull a combo off).

Edit: And yes, Lilith has high Df, but that doesn't mean she is a defensive master. It means she can draw some fire away from her delicate minions - she's a truly protective mother in this way. You still want her close and upfront, to mop up whatever her minions fail to kill.

And to sum up my posts in this thread:

No I don't think Lelu is a bad fighter and I do think they are very useful depending on your master and your playstyle.

Typical Lilith list is filled to the brims with good fighters - YN can at least compete with Lelu, there's one or two Matures and a Waldgeist to boot. Adding yet another fighter is a minor upgrade (if an upgrade at all), but adding one or two utility characters (i.e. Lilitu) brings something nobody else can do. This is why I see second Lilitu more useful than second Lelu in a Lilith crew. That by no means discredits Lelu - he's just adding less to a fighty crew than he'd add to a crew lacking in fighty characters.

Edited January 11, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[karn987]

Do they?

I think it is rather safe to say they do actually Q'iq'el. While your points are valid, the chances seem to all point to the Lelu being more deadly especially if you consider how you usually play it. Which is feeding things to it rather then having it go hunting on it's own. But that's a minor point.

Sure they have about the same mean damage and their average is close. But Poison will almost always put the Lelu out on top and Poison get's around many pesky things like Spirit etc. Then their is always the Lelu's spells which give it the capacity to easily hurt Spirits, something the Young just can not do.

Q'iq'el, you've said your piece on this but I think it's time we all just relent a bit. Both are very useful, but Lelu simply has more uses to him and the greater capacity for survival and damage. The Young has the greater capacity for threat and speed which are great virtues when you consider that it is also one of the best damaging models in the game for it's cost. So while they have their own spots in the game and their is a lot of over-lap, the Lelu offers more general utility in my mind. This is NOT saying the Lelu is better then the Young, please don't mistake my statement for that.

Neither the Young nor Lelu are better then the other. Their abilities over-lap and their use over-laps, but they still have their own niches to fill. There for there is no way to state one is better then the other hands down. There will of course be places where one will be better then the other (For ex: durability and vs spirits for Lelu and maneuvering + blood counter abuse for the Young). But otherwise I think we are done with this point really. Lets move onto something else more on topic alright?

:focus:

Something Im very curious about is, what are peoples experience with Lilitu and Lelu with Zoraida? I've not read much chatter on them and not given it a try myself.

I can see some fun with using Lure + Obey to do some major movement. Or maybe Obeying Lilitu or Lelu for some kind of abusive combo?

[Islington]

Actually I think its rather obvious that a paired flip is superior to +1 cb. If it was +2 cb you might have a point. Ive found that the most important thing in any duel is winning the intial flip and forcing your opponent to cheat first. This forces your opponent to either decide hes not going to win this duel and not cheat, cheat the highest card in his hand in an effort to win no matter what you have, or take a chance on you not having a high enough card to beat him. Every single one of these choices is good for whoever cheats last. If he doesnt cheat you can freely manipulate the total to gain a suit for a trigger or put the duel totals into range for an even damage flip. If he cheats a card you cant beat then you havent wasted a card of your own which he would have beat and youve gotten that card out of his hand. If he cheats a card that you can beat then youve traded him card for card but still gotten damage out of it.

Malifaux is as much about resource management as it is about positioning and combos

So in short paired is better than +1cb because while the +1cb gives you a higher possible duel total the paired flip saves you resources and gives you options. Also while I too have yet to do the math I think that if you do you will almost certainly find that a paired flip will provide you a better average duel total than +1cb.

Ahh one last thing to remeber about poison is that it very neatly gets around hard to kill. If you "kill" a hard to kill model with lelu and it then heals to 1 wound you have still effectively killed it in one activation and possibly 1ap since the model dies as soon as it activates. As far as I know poison is the only thing that can do this.

Edited January 12, 2011 by Islington