Lelu and Lilitu stratagies

[thaehl]

Lets talk about our favorite umm, nightmare.... nephilim.... woes.....well yea. Or are they our favorites? Ive been reading them over and over, and cant really find much use in them. So here is my question how do you use em? Ill pick them up regardless. Ill probably use them with the dreamer, or lilith. Where do think they are best used, what abilities work best in conjunction with them, or one another? Are they as viable as Alps or Stiched? Any and all suggestions are gravely needed, thanks.

[tadaka]

Take 2 of each with dreamer.

Just drop in with alpha strike other guy gets one activation between chomp and the 4 of them. Use girls to paralyze what the boys don't eat. This will crush most crews. Glass cannons don't matter when other side is dead.

[Voras]

I will try Pandora with Lelu, Lilitu, Doppelgänger, 2 Stitched Together and a Sorrow or a Poltergeist or a Primordial Magic in a 35ss Scrap.

Lilitus Lure und '+4 Wp against target' spell in combination with Pandora and Doppelgänger should be nasty.

Lelu in itself can also hit quite hard in melee.

Edited November 4, 2010 by Voras

[Raintar]

Lelu's are devastating....probably the best unit for their cost in the game. The strategy is to drop them down with the Dreamer and have them clean house.

[karn987]

Besides the over-stated autowins of taking 2 of each, they are quite good. They are also 7ss a piece and fairly priced for their power.

The most basic strat is to Lure a model into Lelu's range and give him a full activation to devour it. This applies with Lilith, Pandora, and Zoraida but not so much with the Dreamer. The Dreamer just drops them near/on a target and leaves Lelu in range. Lilitu tends to hover around a bit behind so if need be she can Lure Lelu or another model out of harms way or bring something in to feed Teddy, LCB, or Coppelius.

Their alpha strike is quite powerful, but no more so then the Families of the Kin's alpha strikes. Lilitu isn't exactly a combat machine, but she is still nicely equipped to get down and dirty. Her spell can cause Paralyze and flips with a models own weapon so you have some versatility and insurance incase something lives through Lelu's attacks.

Lelu is actually decently hard to kill due to his number of wounds and if your careful, you can keep him away from retaliation strikes and bring his prey to him. Lilitu is rather tough to hit due to Irresistible and her high Df. But blasts and AE based damage still work just as well, so keep an eye out for that.

They also have incredible healing, able to heal 4wds total on each of them every turn. So don't be afraid to get them in the mix, but your opponent (upon realizing they can heal that much) will probably focus on killing one instead of spreading damage. This almost always ends up being Lelu to, so watch his big red butt and try to protect them while keeping them up in the fray.

For Lilith she can do a whole crew alpha strike if you have 4 of them, she companions her totem and Brood Mothers one of the twins and off you go. This is rather nasty, but your likely to fail several duels and get nailed after-wards... sooo I don't recommend it unless you have the hand to back it up or your feeling lucky. For me, it never quite works out as well as it could and I end up getting locked out of some important duel. But ah well, a little careful spell casting etc and you can hopefully protect/save your twins.

All in all, they are a very solid set of units but they still have a large number of weakness's. AE's will take Lilitu out without much issue and Lelu's Df is so low, nearly everything can hit him. Statements about them being Glass Cannons and that being irrelevant because they can alpha strike, are only half true. This is how they were designed to work, they trade durability for speed ( a common neverborn thing). So they have to be fast or they will die. But even being fast can get them killed as you wont win every attack, you won't win every Df duel. They will die if you play them agressively, but hopefully many more things will also die. With some careful placement and fineesse, you can make them very hard to kill (via Lureing targets in or Lureing Lelu's out or Burying them or Transpositioning them. Or Earthquakeing them out or Obeying them to attack more, or Debuffing their targets etc etc).

The point is, they take some smarts to play to their fullest effect and if your opponent is smart to, they can find ways to counter them. So be careful. The main exception is Dreamer and 2 sets of twins because of the alpha strike ability. This is a rather cheesy tactic and I would honestly say, if your playing for fun... why do a thing like this to someone? If your playing in a league or competitively, go for it. It works rather well, just be aware that your ARE putting all your eggs in one basket and half the time, you will fall flat on your basket and have yolk on your face.

Edited November 4, 2010 by karn987

[tadaka]

Its a dirty tactic to have dreamer drop a horde of nightmares on some ones head? That's how every game I ever seen played with him go.

[karn987]

Its a dirty tactic to have dreamer drop a horde of nightmares on some ones head? That's how every game I ever seen played with him go.

I was only referring to dropping 2 sets of twins on them and then alpha striking them. =D

Most other Nightmares are rather easy to deal with, but these guys present a much greater challenge for many crews.

Also... I misspoke (I really need to triple check myself ><), I meant it was a cheesy tactic, not dirty. Dirty would be fact that base Pandora used to be able to Pacify/Incite her own models and people would abuse this with a Sorrow Hive heh.

Edited November 4, 2010 by karn987

[tadaka]

If you find them easy you should make a nice solid smoke the dreamer tactic for us. I personalty find them to be any thing but easy. Only thing I have found to help is to spread out your crew all over the place but this is hardly a counter to them.

Dropping a ton of hard hitting and Semi hard to kill models in to hand to hand combat is a rough thing to deal with.

[karn987]

If you find them easy you should make a nice solid smoke the dreamer tactic for us. I personalty find them to be any thing but easy. Only thing I have found to help is to spread out your crew all over the place but this is hardly a counter to them.

Dropping a ton of hard hitting and Semi hard to kill models in to hand to hand combat is a rough thing to deal with.

Hmm a valid point. Alright, Ill get on that then =)

[tenabrae]

I reckon there's a lot of people who don't actually read any ability on their models that doesn't end in a damage line.

[tadaka]

Why say that. The post I put up recommended using paralysis on targets you could not kill. Can also lash in those models are 2 far away. karn also posted a number of ideas on using them.

[Ratty]

I will try Pandora with Lelu, Lilitu, Doppelgänger, 2 Stitched Together and a Sorrow or a Poltergeist or a Primordial Magic in a 35ss Scrap.

Lilitus Lure und '+4 Wp against target' spell in combination with Pandora and Doppelgänger should be nasty.

Lelu in itself can also hit quite hard in melee.

Played against Pandora Doppelganger, Lelu, Lelitu and a sorrow tonight. They really didn't impress me, they aren't amazingly tough. I managed to get the alpha strike on them and I had took both of them out in a turn, both with Ikiryo. I think if you can guarantee the alpha strike they are OK, but I'm not sure in other forces.

[Poko]

Only played them once so far, Lilitu sadly bit the dust early on, and so the lelu had limited time of life. But his Thoughts Twisted is awesome, it gives two guaranteed wounds to enemy with no way to stop it, perfect against tough or high Def models. What I did find a problem was that they're slow, the lelu just can't keep up with the other nephilim.

[Rathnard]

What I did find a problem was that they're slow, the lelu just can't keep up with the other nephilim.

It's definitely a major factor for Lelu - he's just so slow compared to everything else the Neverborn have.

One way to negate that, however, is using Lilitu to Lure Lelu into the fray. Assuming both Lilitu and Lelu start the same distance from the target, Lilitu can walk 10" and use casting expert to Lure Lelu 8" (assuming you have a mask handy for double take, which shouldn't be too difficult). The damage from Lilitu's whip will be regenerated when Lelu activates, and he's then free to charge something for a total of 14" of movement.

Another option is to use Zoraida or her voodoo doll to Obey Lelu for a 6" charge before he charges the target in his own activation (so 12" of movement).

Come to think of it, Liliths Transposition would also solve Lelu's speed problems.

[velri]

for me and a few other people it seems like lelu us always first to die, it seems like a big chunk of points but has anyone tried 2 lelu with one lelitu?

[Q'iq'el]

Nephilim crews are all about speed, but they can accommodate one or two slower models via Mature's Carry.

One strong point of Nephilim crew is that you can't get rid of Lelu & Lilitu so easily - there will always be enough Nephilim around to summon back the model you've lost.

In the past I've posted how Lilith crews are all about positioning and as such, the tricks and advanced tactics the crew pulls off tend to appear in the movement stats and to a degree movement denial/attack denial abilities. I must say that from this point of view the toolbox Lilitu brings is just awesome for any Lilith crew:

Impure Thoughts to immobilise targets, guarantee they cannot hit back (doubles Cherub's Love functionality) and burn their control hand/soulstone cache down.

Lure is just diabolic in any crew that plays the positioning game and absolutely priceless for Lilith crews.

Lelu seems somewhat less useful, but some of his abilities are situationally excellent.

For example Hard to Wound is major annoyance for Lilith when fighting any undead. Punish Me! is a solid counter to that.

It isn't bad that he can heal Lilitu and re-summon her should she get eliminated.

Edited November 5, 2010 by Q'iq'el

[thaehl]

Im guessing my first post was a bit misleading, my real problem is in the durability of the Lilitu, does she really live long enough to make her worth it?

[Q'iq'el]

Im guessing my first post was a bit misleading, my real problem is in the durability of the Lilitu, does she really live long enough to make her worth it?

Who do you play against?

Do you have enough terrain on your table? (check out the recommendation in the books - Malifaux is rather terrain intensive game).

How are you protecting her?

Are you using her float ability to full extend?

Have you noticed her Irresistible is almost impossible to bypass?

What I'm trying to say - wounds are not the only factor when it comes to survivability.

And BTW, Wd 7 and Df 6 are not bad at all. These actually are quite high stats for a mere minion. Some Masters have less and minions with more Wd are usually in the 10+ price range. It's obvious as a model she's going to get focused as she is a pretty valuable one, but that is why you have all the above-mentioned tools to protect her and the ability to re-summon her on the top of that.

Edited November 5, 2010 by Q'iq'el

[karn987]

Basically everything Q'iq'el said. She does live long enough =)

Though as always in this game, if she attracts to much powerful attention she will die. But if your subtle with her and careful about protecting her and maximizing her massive 4" reach and Paralyze... your golden.

[Poko]

Come to think of it, Liliths Transposition would also solve Lelu's speed problems.

*SMACK* Yes, it is a nice way to boost him, thanks for brining it up. Should've though of it myself, but I get too caught up in one train of thoughs too often.

[Zwergenkrieger]

Sorry for thread necromancy, but I thought that opening a new thread isn´t needed because my question is somewhat themed to this threads title:

I totally dig the Lelitu model but I can´t stand the Lelu sculpt. therefore I wonder if it is possible to run lelitu without lelu to some degree of success. Or do I have to field both to get the best out of them?

Thanks in advance

HTG

[Ratty]

If you use Lilitu on it's own your going to end up wasting actions keeping your model alive.

BTW have you seen Lelu in the flesh, it's much nicer than in the photo.

[M_Ruckuss]

for me and a few other people it seems like lelu us always first to die, it seems like a big chunk of points but has anyone tried 2 lelu with one lelitu?

Yes, although 2nd one was summoned. It works really well.

I think a trick people may be missing (or not saying their using, or i am just plain incorrect) is to store up a 13 in your hand, activate lelu (and then lilitu..) munch stuff, then use lilitu to sacrifice him, then summon a new one which then gets a futher 2 attacks.

This will only work if you have been able to drain blood, but i thought this might be a good way of gaining either a revamped lelu late in the game \(leaving lilitu free to heal others), gaining an ew lelu before he dies i.e. was low on wds (ok very situational) or just a way to gain another 2 attacks if the 1st ones didnt go according to plan. I know a 13 is a high card to use, but it could work methinks.....

[Rathnard]

I totally dig the Lelitu model but I can´t stand the Lelu sculpt. therefore I wonder if it is possible to run lelitu without lelu to some degree of success. Or do I have to field both to get the best out of them?

I think it's possible to take Lilitu without using/summoning Lelu, but you can feasibly only do it if you take her with Zoraida and hex off Two-Sided in the first or second turn. Hex does need a high :masks though, so unless you're lucky you'd probably have to cheat down a moderate :masks and use a soulstone to boost the total (remembering you can use Bayou two-card to just copy the card you cheated if you don't want to get screwed by a crappy flip ).

I have a Lilitu and 2 Lelu's on order. The redundancy is expensive SS-wise but it lets me throw the Lelu's into the fray without being too concerned about losing one.

Edited December 6, 2010 by Rathnard

[viggo3000]

For me the twins work real well with pandora. Forcing more wp duels and ading abit of punch in cc.