Lilith list....

[M_Ruckuss]

Hey.Am looking to start my second malifaux crew. I really like the look of Collodi's Doll crew, but i think i will wait until the proper models come out. I was considering other options but have opter for lilith as I love the models and shes definetly one of my fav malifaux characters.

Was just wondering if i could glean a few shards of wisdom... (and maybe share a few later on...!!!)

1) Waldgeist- I love these guys, and know they can work well with Lilith (forests) Any thoughts....?

2) Nephilim- I love the terror tot models, but realise the others are where its at. Start with a Mature, or a mix of tots and young? Or any other suggestions for using them?

3)Black lood Shamans- Think these are a must as they make evolving nephilim much easier! So I take it 2 at 30ss or 1 and Lekima (see next).

4) Lekima-bloody expensive but surely a must as she looks amazing if brittle and really useful with other nephilim. Do i still take a black blood shaman with her as well?

5) Cherub- prefer to primordial magic but can anyone give me a tip as to how to keep him from breaking off his base slot- rest are removed and pinned into place but hes too small- any suggestions? (i need to "me-proof" models!)

6)LOVE stitched together (boogie man form nightmare before christmas anyone?!) Think they are too different however- am I wrong?

7) Any woes worth taking; thought not but know others rate Candy and Cade.

Basing the army in woods as I plan to do a railway/forest board or a mining outpost/forest board, so looking for a fluffyish list for this.

Thanks in advance to anone.all who reply. Any answers to above questions, other tips/stratergies/pointers with lilith or suggestion on models to include or list composition will be appreciated!

Regards

[karn987]

*cracks knuckles* Lets do this!

1) Waldgeists are often said to work very well with Lilith. They are not Nephilim, which is the only bad part out them as I see it. The only part about them is that unless you do the random terrain flipping stuff, you may get some boo hiss for placing forests with them ;D. But most people are fine with it, but any way. If you have forests on the board, they are great. If you don't Lilith's Illussionary Forest is a forest and you can have some fun with that and the Waldgeist. But honestly, without forests they are not worth it I've found. So pick and chose based on the terrain set up. But I love them.

2) This is 100% up to you. There is no best use case for this. It all depends on how you like to play. Some people like to play a swarm of Tots with a Mature. Others like to bring 2 Matures and maybe a tot or two. Others love Young and just spam as many of them as you can. But what I will say is that I've personally found just Tots does not work very well. They are not that terribly strong, though Flay gives them some decent damage. But against things like Corphyee, they are rather screwed. But Young Nephilim may be the best models in the game for 6ss. They are very strong, and can hit as hard as their Mature counter parts. So if you want to just go with pure face eating and mature them as you play, go with Young.

Personally, I prefer to bring a Mature if I'm not bringing Nekima. I like to have 1 big Nephilim that can gather Blood Counters early on.

3)Black Blood Shamans are very nice, but don't take to many of them. They are a support unit and you really need several Nephilim to get the most out of them. Honestly I never take more then 1 in any list less then 35ss, they just clog the field I find. But I love one them none the less. I think the general rule is, you want to have double their cost in Nephilim. So if you have one, you want 12ss of other Nephilim at least. If you have 2, you want 24ss of other Nephilim at least. I find this gives you the best bang for your buck.

The one exception would be if you want to play an abusive list and bring cheap living models to kill for blood. Then you may want two so that you can put all the blood to good use and increase your yield.

4) Nekima is in one word, awesome. She is actually not that brittle, she is the toughest of all the Nephilim with 12 wounds and regen. Irresistible also helps keep her really safe against most models. She is also an absolute terror on the battle field. I like to still bring one Black Blood Shaman with her for the buffs he can give her, Fast on Nekima is CRAZY but a lot of points to pull off.

Personally, I always say yes to bringing a Black Blood Shaman with Nekima if you have the points. Though I would only recommend this at 35ss+ because its a huge chunk of your army, and you really want other Nephilim to back them up. Nekima can't quite do it all on her own, you want some back up.

5)I built mine a nice little rock pile and basically buried his foot into the top of it. Then some putty and carful painting made it look like his food was on top of the pile pushing off. Hasn't broken yet on me... but I'm leery about it heh.

But the Cherub is a very very good model, even compared to the Primordial Magic. The Love spell alone can be worth it, though it all depends on how you like to play as always.

6)I don't like them with Lilith. I like them with the Dreamer for obvious reasons. I prefer to spend my SS on Tots or Young which will give me more millage throughout the game. Though the Stitched Together's Creeping Fog is REALLY good since 4" of obscuring means the Stitched Together is kept really safe from ranged attacks. It also protected models behind it and Does Not Die! Means that they can't remove that protection during a turn, they have to wait till the end of the turn for it to go away.

So they have some strategic use, so maybe against say Perdita or Gremlins. But they are thematically to different for me.

7)Lelu and Lilitu 100%. They are some of the strongest models in the game and the pair + Lilith is extremely hard to counter. Lelu is a combat beast to match models twice his cost and Lilitu can screw with your opponent with Lure and her trigger.

Otherwise, Madness can be some fun to help make your Terrifying abilities more likely to go off.

Candy can be nice for the healing flip she can give you, but for 8ss I don't think she is worth it with Lilith.

Hope that helps and LOVE your idea for the bases. You will have to put up picks when you finish it =)

[M_Ruckuss]

Wow that was awesome feedback karn987...!!! `

Thanks for the tip with the woes; have re-read and seen how awesome they are. For the size games I am currently playing, I would have to use them OR Nekima. Think I will be playing with them at some point.I think that these guys with black blood shamans will be popular: start with 2 and raise 4... ouch!!! Will be grabbing them at some point!

Will leave dolls until I use Collodi. SORTED! Will also not be importing desperate mercs as prefer fluff to cheese/spam, as clever and effective as it may be.

Was planning a similar trick with the cherub, great to know it works so will build my own pile, preferrably with roots/vines. So THANKYOU!

So here are my ideas for lists at 25ss:

25 SS

Lilith (Cache 5 (4+1) )

2 Young Nephalim (12ss)

2 Terror Tots (6ss)

Shaman (6ss)

OR

Lilith (Cache 5)

Waldegeist (6ss)

Blackblood Shaman (6ss)

4 Terror Tots OR 2 Terrors and a Young Nephalim. (12)

I think I prefer the second list at 25ss. Fits theme more. Also Shaman can use "Taint Blood" to turn the waldegeist into a nephalim... Problem is obviously have no cherub.....SO how does this look:

Lilith (Cache 5)

Cherub (2ss)

3 Terror Tots (9ss)

Nekima (13ss)

List will obviously centre around Lilith and Nekima carving through enemies and then tots evolving ASAP. Cherub would run interference. Pregame options would include swapping Nekima for 2 Waldegeist OR Lelu and Lilitu. Thes would be secondary options, however

Also, what is to stop 2 illusionary forests being in play simultaneously (one from lilith one fro cherub)? Wording says "remains in play until cast again", right? So this would mean that either:

a)In games involving more than 1 Lilith (so say with cherubs upto 4 models capable of casting illusionary forest) only 1 forest can ever be in play, and is repostitioned upto 4 times in a single turn,which seems non-sensical

OR

I can use both Lilith and Cherub to create 2 forests.

Thoughts?

Presuming I can create 2 forests I would probs include a waldegeist at 30ss, or a young nephalim or black blood shaman. Again, any thoughts?

I realise that this list is risky and relies alot on blood counters, but seems really themed and isnt just your standard all nephalim or cheese-tournament.

Thankyou for the compliment on the bases/theme idea. I have cut up one of the bases from the GW citadel trees ( as the base itself is WAY too big to use as an illusionary forest) and have cut into the base "slot", filling gaps with dirt-like flock and milliput. Am pretty pleased with results so far, and will try to get pics up asap. Also plan to use some resin or braa etch leaves. Lilith strikes me as an "autumn" or "November" character. Probs just me being special, but I see her stalking prey as very autumny i.e. things coming to an end. My trees will all be bare so wantedto include some leaves (maples tend to look the part) and maybe a few tiny shrooms.

Or could do winter or even early spring, again(!) any thoughs?

Thanks again karn987. Any more feedback would be appreciated (from others too).

Regards

Edited October 25, 2010 by McDoogle
dyslexia. grumble grumble....!

[karn987]

For Illusionary Forest, I'm sure it's assumed to work only when your crew casts it again, not an opponents/allies. But not 100% on this, it generally doesn't come up.

As for both Lilith and her totem casting it, only 1 forest would be in play by the wording of the spell. Doesn't matter if she casts it, or if the totem cast it. If one is in play, it would go away and be replaced by the latest cast from someone in your crew.

As for the lists, they are not bad. The nice thing about Lilith is you have a LOT of viable configurations at 35ss and less. There is not 100% right way to play her, it's basically whatever works for you. Like I said, if you like a few powerhouses, take Nekima, Matures, and the twins. If you like greater numbers, take Young and Tots and maybe Nekima and the Shaman. Your totem is never an auto include with her I've found. Infact, I don't use one at less then 30ss because I just find I want to spend the SS on other models. Either that or take the hit to your cache and start the game with 3ss or something like that.

But basically, you should chose your main Nephilim and THEN if there are SS left over, take the totem.

25 SS

Lilith (Cache 5 (4+1) )

2 Young Nephalim (12ss)

2 Terror Tots (6ss)

Shaman (6ss)

That is a very good list. The 2 Young will be enough to take on most things you will face at that point level and the Tots give you speed and can quickly before more support. The Shaman will drastically help out your crew by granting fast, (1) charges, Poison, etc, and help pump up your Tots into Young asap. With that list, look to Grow your Tots ASAP and worry about maturing a Young after that.

Lilith (Cache 5)

Waldegeist (6ss)

Blackblood Shaman (6ss)

4 Terror Tots OR 2 Terrors and a Young Nephalim. (12)

Pretty much the same thing. Though I would leave out all the tots and just go with 2 Young. Or go with Waldegeist, 1 Tot, 1 Young, 1 Mature and Lilith with 4ss cache. That would be a very strong blitzing list and be rather hard to deal with at 25ss, though it is a bit straight forward.

Lilith (Cache 5)

Cherub (2ss)

3 Terror Tots (9ss)

Nekima (13ss)

This is a mean list, but you have to be very careful with it. It makes Nekima a HUGE target because nothing else besides Lilith is close to her power category, so they will not be split between say, shooting a Tot or shooting Nekima. But if you do get a lot of blood fast, it will very very quickly become nearly impossible to beat. I would go with 1 Tot and 1 Young so that you have some more starting power. But again, its your own style that will determine what is best for you.

As for the Twins, they are a huge point investment (obviously) but they are worth it. You just need to practice with maximizing their effectiveness. They can quickly rip apart most models and Lilitu's Lure is just SO INCREDIBLY useful. If you want to use them at 25ss, I recommend:

Lilith +4

Lelu -7

Lilitu -7

Shaman -6

Tot -3

And a 6 cache because Lilith will have to be in the fray a lot doing a lot of leg work. Though if you feel confident with 4ss, go with the Cherub to.

But the Shaman can give you fast to your Nephilim, so models like Lelu become MONSTEROUS with this. That means he can make 4 attacks in a single turn. Have Lelu take the Wd loss because he will recover 2 when he activates and at the end of hte turn, Have Lilitu heal herself or Lelu to heal 2 more!

As for Lilith... I think Winter, blood looks prettier when on the white snow ;D

[M_Ruckuss]

So they are all viable lists...awesome! I like variety (not to screw opponents, just for fun-i pick my lists before mission geerally)

How about using the shaman to make the twins nephilim too.......?

At 30/35 (the largest game size I play atm)

30ss-

Lilith (Cache 4)

Cherub (2ss)

1 Terror Tot (3ss)

2 Young Nephilim (12ss)

Nekima (13ss)

35ss-

Lilith (Cache 4)

2 Young Nephalim (12ss)

1 Terror Tots (3ss)

Shaman (6ss)

Twins (14 ss)

Will have to plat test and find out what plays well now. Thanks for all the advice and will keep posting once try out some combos....

Pics to follow

[vineuk]

Ive been playing around with this set up for the past few weeks and it really borders on the adusive. By turn 2 as long as all goes well (only failed once in 9 games) you should of been able to grow your 3 Terror Tots in to 2 Matures and 1 Young and still have the rest of the list alive apart from the 2 Merc's by turn 2.

Warband =

Lilith +4

Cherub -2

BB Shaman -6

Nekima -13

3 x Terror Tots -9

2 x D Merc’s -4

Total 34. Leaving Lilith with 5 shards.

Turn 1

1) Activate Nekima.

a) Cast 0 Nephilim Heart for CA + Mask

Cast 0 Blood Offering. Take 4 wounds and receive 1 Blood counter.

2) Activate Lilith

a) Kill a Merc Using 1st action

Shaman or Nekima gain 1 Blood Counter from Blood Sence

c) Use the Mercs ability A Last Noble Deed to heal Nekima

d) Use 0 to use Brain Blood and get 1 Blood Counter.

e) Use Bloody Fate to draw a Card if you had 2 masks

f) Kill a Merc Using 2nd action

g) Shaman or Nekima gain 1 Blood Counter from Blood Sence

h) Use the Mercs ability A Last Noble Deed to heal Nekima

i) Use Bloody Fate to draw a Card if you had 2 masks

j) Use last action as required.

3) Activate Cherub

a) Use 2 actions as required. Normally I use one action to make a forest to block LOS, slow models down or to just add bonus protection as I don't move on turn 1.

5) Activate BB Shaman

a) Cast 0 Blood Offering. Take 4 wounds and receive 1 Blood Counter.

Using a Corpses Counter from a dead Merc cast 1 action Inject Blood on (self) Shaman and heal for 2 and gain Blood Counter from the two mask Trigger.

c) Using the last Corpses Counter from a dead Merc cast 1 action Inject Blood on (Self) Shaman and heal for 2 and gain Blood Counter from two mask Trigger.

Then grow and mature you 3 Terror Tots using the 7 blood counters. The fact you get 4 CB for growing and an extra mast from Nekima. Makes it pritty easy even with an adverage hand.

By turn 2 you should have 46 points of models on the board and Lilith with 5 shards to use. Yes you basically loose turn one but I havn't found that a problem at all so far. Try it out and let me know the results.

Edited October 26, 2010 by vineuk

[MrNybbles]

Also, what is to stop 2 illusionary forests being in play simultaneously (one from lilith one fro cherub)? Wording says "remains in play until cast again", right? So this would mean that either:

a)In games involving more than 1 Lilith (so say with cherubs upto 4 models capable of casting illusionary forest) only 1 forest can ever be in play, and is repostitioned upto 4 times in a single turn,which seems non-sensical

OR

I can use both Lilith and Cherub to create 2 forests.

Thoughts?

This was answered in the Another Question on Magical Extension thread. Basically each Lilith crew can have one instance of Illusionary forest in play at once. If two players in a game have Lilith then each of those players may have one Illusionary Forest in play.

The strategy of using Desperate Mercs in games with a low Soulstones for recruiting and not BB Shamans always made me wonder because for 1 AP Lilith can use Blood from Stone and turn 8ss into 4 blood counters (or whatever quantity works for you) and you don't have to risk your Terror Tots not killing the Desperate Mercs. Lilith would just need to be within 6" of the growing Terror Tot.

In a game where the Terror Tots are not going to be near Lilith at the start of the game or if you have a large Soulstone cache you want to keep after hiring Desperate Mercs then doing this is advisable.

Edited October 26, 2010 by MrNybbles

[karn987]

Ive been playing around with this set up for the past few weeks and it really borders on the adusive. By turn 2 as long as all goes well (only failed once in 9 games) you should of been able to grow your 3 Terror Tots in to 2 Matures and 1 Young and still have the rest of the list alive apart from the 2 Merc's by turn 2.

Warband =

Lilith +4

Cherub -2

BB Shaman -6

Nekima -13

3 x Terror Tots -9

2 x D Merc’s -4

Total 34. Leaving Lilith with 5 shards.

Turn 1

1) Activate Nekima.

a) Cast 0 Nephilim Heart for CA + Mask

Cast 0 Blood Offering. Take 4 wounds and receive 1 Blood counter.

2) Activate Lilith

a) Kill a Merc Using 1st action

Shaman or Nekima gain 1 Blood Counter from Blood Sence

c) Use the Mercs ability A Last Noble Deed to heal Nekima

d) Use 0 to use Brain Blood and get 1 Blood Counter.

e) Use Bloody Fate to draw a Card if you had 2 masks

f) Kill a Merc Using 2nd action

g) Shaman or Nekima gain 1 Blood Counter from Blood Sence

h) Use the Mercs ability A Last Noble Deed to heal Nekima

i) Use Bloody Fate to draw a Card if you had 2 masks

j) Use last action as required.

3) Activate Cherub

a) Use 2 actions as required. Normally I use one action to make a forest to block LOS, slow models down or to just add bonus protection as I don't move on turn 1.

5) Activate BB Shaman

a) Cast 0 Blood Offering. Take 4 wounds and receive 1 Blood Counter.

Using a Corpses Counter from a dead Merc cast 1 action Inject Blood on (self) Shaman and heal for 2 and gain Blood Counter from the two mask Trigger.

c) Using the last Corpses Counter from a dead Merc cast 1 action Inject Blood on (Self) Shaman and heal for 2 and gain Blood Counter from two mask Trigger.

Then grow and mature you 3 Terror Tots using the 7 blood counters. The fact you get 4 CB for growing and an extra mast from Nekima. Makes it pritty easy even with an adverage hand.

By turn 2 you should have 46 points of models on the board and Lilith with 5 shards to use. Yes you basically loose turn one but I havn't found that a problem at all so far. Try it out and let me know the results.

Yeah but the big thing I hate about this kind of tactic is it's abusing the game. Sure it works and it's powerful, but it's also cheap. It's like the Res bringing dogs and using them for bodies for something big. It's an abuse of the game. I guess what I should say is, I see no honor in playing like that :/ but that's me and that's my opinion on the matter. You are of course free to play how you like, as long as you and your opponent are having fun it's all good. =)

[M_Ruckuss]

Everyone plays their own way, as karn said. I used to enter (and win but thats by the by) loads of local 400pt 40k tournaments. After 6-7 months and losing literally 2 out of around 70+ games it destroyed my hobby. Didnt play again for another 6 months. I think the resses can get away with it (if u take 4 canine remains and perform an all action to dig for a turn and raise a big beastie next turn id argue that is in the rules as the faqshave not removed grave robber from doggies) but PERSONALLY i will only be taking neverborn in this list. Thanks to vineuk tho, it sounds like a great tourny tactic, and certianly one to pull out if you play an opponent who goes from being cheeky to bein....well a libertine to put it politely!

Thanks for that ref MrNybbles. Also I prefer the soulstone cache: once saw Taylor walk up to my (McMourning) master (I know only def 4) And swing that big hammer to kill him in one turn: shellshocked!!! Unless it cripples my list, i'm definetly a BIG fan of a largeish cache!

Think if im concerned about the numbers on the board/ a more competative list the twins are a great shout: you can raise 2 more asap AND give them nephalim/blackblood. And you can keep raising more if they die! Unless i'm missing something, as long as there is 1 in play then potentially they are effectively a neverborn resse option! I dont know how anyoneelse feels, but 4 woes of THAT calibre for 14ss is well, insane!

Karn-would the woes really fit a woodbase theme? Part of me can see a woodland spirit/druidic theme but not entirely sure-any thoughts?

[karn987]

Everyone plays their own way, as karn said. I used to enter (and win but thats by the by) loads of local 400pt 40k tournaments. After 6-7 months and losing literally 2 out of around 70+ games it destroyed my hobby. Didnt play again for another 6 months. I think the resses can get away with it (if u take 4 canine remains and perform an all action to dig for a turn and raise a big beastie next turn id argue that is in the rules as the faqshave not removed grave robber from doggies) but PERSONALLY i will only be taking neverborn in this list. Thanks to vineuk tho, it sounds like a great tourny tactic, and certianly one to pull out if you play an opponent who goes from being cheeky to bein....well a libertine to put it politely!

Thanks for that ref MrNybbles. Also I prefer the soulstone cache: once saw Taylor walk up to my (McMourning) master (I know only def 4) And swing that big hammer to kill him in one turn: shellshocked!!! Unless it cripples my list, i'm definetly a BIG fan of a largeish cache!

Think if im concerned about the numbers on the board/ a more competative list the twins are a great shout: you can raise 2 more asap AND give them nephalim/blackblood. And you can keep raising more if they die! Unless i'm missing something, as long as there is 1 in play then potentially they are effectively a neverborn resse option! I dont know how anyoneelse feels, but 4 woes of THAT calibre for 14ss is well, insane!

Karn-would the woes really fit a woodbase theme? Part of me can see a woodland spirit/druidic theme but not entirely sure-any thoughts?

Gravediggers can no longer dig for corpse counters. The Dogs are just 2ss corpse counters now letting you get some models cheaper. They removed it because of the Resser abuse. =) So unless the Dogs have some other ability that lets them do it, no more for them.

The twins are already Nephilim and already have Black Blood and Drain Blood btw. They are full blooded Nephilim, Woe, Nightmares >.>.

As a side note, SS wont always save you. I one shotted a 8ss Rasputina with LCB =). Red Joker in my hand and a little luck helps, but sometimes SS still wont save you so don't over-do them ;D

On the woes... Im a little confused as to which woes you mean? Do you mean the Twins?

But that besides the point, I believe any model could work for it because humanity exists in all parts of Malifaux. Living, feeling creatures exist all over Malifaux and wherever there are emotions, their can be Woes. They could be spawn from Gremlins or humans or probably even Nephilim, but they can exist and probably do exist any and every where. So I say add them in and go for some sort of creepy light glow in the dark forest style of effect.

For Lelu, have him like battering through a crowd of trees as I would imagine him doing.

For Lilitu have her base be black and have her standing on the top of a tree of a branch of a tree coming up from the black base making it look like she is balancing on it. Either that or have her coming through some light brush and giving that sorta "Beautiful Nymph from the woods" look if that makes any sense.

Beyond that, what Woes do you mean?

[vineuk]

Yes I do agree and understand that the list I posted is rather taking the rules and how can we put it politly, abusing them to the max. But then you can do that with a lot of rules in the game. This is only something I'm trying out and belive me it's no auto win list. I've only been playing lilith for about 3 weeks now and shes the first combat caster I've used. So she's a lot different to Ramos and Zoraida that I normally play. To be truthfull I've only played Malifaux for about 4 months now. So it's all quite new to me. I do exspect some rule updates in the near future to maybe slow that turn 1 down or lower the amount of blood counters you can get per turn. Could even be a change to Desperate Mercs because truthfully there be used 99% of the time as walking corpse counter as it stands now.

One last point. I have the worse luck in the world with dice hence why I thought I'd try Malifaux, no dice great I thought. Well it appears my bad luck isn't only limited to dice lol. So I never play as if I have to win because with the way I draw cards I would be disapointed so so many times lol. Any ways good luck with lilith and remeber to sharper her sword lol.

[M_Ruckuss]

Thats really useful to know, do you know where in rising powers that is just so I can quote it, or is it an errata? Take it this means NO models can generate counters because of their type, only by their abilities or when something dies?

Does this have something to do with why the shaman has "grave digger" rather than " grave robber" as a rule? Has grave robber been over-written the digger rule now?

Sorry, those are the 2 I mean. I always associate woes with Pandora (bloody classics/greek interest) nephilim with Lilith and dolls with Zoraida.

I didnt realise lelu and lilitu were also nephilim so fit really well anyway! I take it I can have 2 of each in play at the same time? At least if I use, for e.g. a lelu to summon a lilitu as both are rare2? Or is there a rule somewhere staing I can only have half of the max number of rare choices below a certain ss limit?

If I can how is:

25ss

Lilith (Cache 4)

Lelu (7ss)

Lilitu (7ss)

Young Nephilim (6ss)

Terror Tot (3ss)

Cherub (2ss)

Similar in a way to earlier Nekima list. No shaman, but a whole lot of hurt if I can raise another 2 woes...it effectively becomes a near 40ss list by my maths... Would then look to add more nephilim and a shaman heading towards30ss and 35ss.

Use cherub to create forests and be a pain in the arse. Woes, Lilith and young nephilim "bring the rain" while I try to use the terror tot subtly and then spring a mature nephilim into play (cards allowing) at the right time.

Theres less synergy (how do u spell this word...???!!!) than the previous 25ss Nekima list, butthe woes (as above, as long as I can summion 2 of each) should be able to pimp slap most things at a 25ss limit....at least I think so anyway!!!

Thoughts Karn?

[M_Ruckuss]

Lol I know how you feel; I feel that any games I win are in spite of luck!!! Lady luck herself seems to be like a vindictive ex who enjoys screwing with me, despite me never having done anything wrong in the first place. Its def a good tactic, just not one for me. Ive only been playing a month and a half myself. Loving the game. Just have hang ups about..."stretchy" lists and I prefer to win 1 out of 3 with fluffy list than 3 out of 3 with a gamers list: I prefer to kill my opponents master and play for the fluff (which probably explains my love of the psychotic characters!!!

[karn987]

If memory serves, it's in the errata probably on the first page under the types section. Check there, you should see it. If it's not there then Im not sure... I know I've read it before.

Gravedigger is a misprint, it should read Graverobber.

You can have 2 Lelu and 2 Lilitu, they are just Rare 2 with no other restrictions =). So bring 2 of each, or make more, it's up to you.

Yup! The Twins are Woes, Nephilim, and Nightmares (Meaning they are not living models! So no corpse counters from them OR blood counters from Blood Sense). They are also very complex models to get down pat, but once you understand them it's like riding a bike =)

As far as making more of the Twins, you actually turn another Nephilim into one of them. You sac the Nephilim and 2 Blood counters, need a high flip, and get a new one. Honestly I've never found trying to make more of them a viable strategy to rely on. I've used it a few times when I lose one or I have the chance to do it (the high card really makes it annoying to pull off).

But Lelu and Lilitu are extremely dangerous and should never be under estimated. They have a limitless range Companion for each other, heal like crazy, bring Lure to the field with Lilitu and really high damage with Lelu. Whats not to love? =)

Lilith (Cache 4)

Lelu (7ss)

Lilitu (7ss)

Young Nephilim (6ss)

Terror Tot (3ss)

Cherub (2ss)

That is actually a fine list and will do well as long as you learn how to use the twins properly. You need to learn when to activate one then the other and vice versa. With Lilith and the Cherub that gives you a 4 model alpha strike you can pull off! Lelu hits harder then the Mature but he is slow, so thats why Lilitu often pulls his targets into his range before whipping them a bit. This works nicely with Double Take (which the current understood intention is that the target must fail the resist for you to cast it again) which lets you get several lures off on a single AP if you have the masks. At higher points, the Twins and Nekima are hard to beat because she can grant them the Masks they need. Either to the Ca for Lilitu's lure or to the Ca for Lelu's flay, basically switching as you need.

One of my favorites is:

Lilith +4

Lelu or Lilitu -7

Lelu -7

Lilitu -7

Cherub -2

This leaves Lilith with 6SS. You can go with either a second Lelu or Lilitu depending on what you like most and what your objective/opponent is. Its a little risky because the list relies on a few models to get the job done, but then again at this point level you are rarely out numbered by a lot.

But as I said, because you need to sac a Nephilim to get another of the twins, it's not that insane. Infact it's not even a good strategy to try and factory them out because it requires 2 blood counters each and a high card to pull off. I would say just get into the fray and do what Lilith does best, eating faces.

I'm actually nearly done with my Lilith tactica, watch my tactica post for the update that it's ready then PM me with your email address and Ill send it along to you.

[M_Ruckuss]

Awesome, I will do. I'm sure that will make for a great read!

Thanks. I think I am going to enjoy this crew, as there seems to be a far wider array of fun yet competive options than other crews, once you get the hang of the component parts (which, lets be honest, is one of the best bits!) Will stick to cherub, nephilim, the twins, nekima and waldegeist for now. Have almost finished the base construction (less grass, leaves and maybe a skull or 2) will hopefully post basic images tomo. If not, return your email when I send u mine and i'll post the pics over that way

Should get some games in against Rasputina (payback), Colette (will smack if I can catch-but this crew is potentially quicker than the old one) and Kirai (a spirit list- oh bollocks!) sometime in the coming week and will let you know how they go. NOT looking forward to facing Kirai as my mate can use her really well, and still cant figure out how to kill the annoying things with devour, Kirai, Datsue-ba and the spirits that let kirai come back quick enough! Sebastion and the necrotic terror MIGHT do the job in my other crew, but think this crew may have a harder time-should be a great challenge!!

[Poko]

The strategy of using Desperate Mercs in games with a low Soulstones for recruiting and not BB Shamans always made me wonder because for 1 AP Lilith can use Blood from Stone and turn 8ss into 4 blood counters (or whatever quantity works for you) and you don't have to risk your Terror Tots not killing the Desperate Mercs. Lilith would just need to be within 6" of the growing Terror Tot.

Without the shaman, or nekima, there is no point in having the desperate merc. He costs 2SS and produces 1 blood token. Lilith can do the same, for exactly the same cost, so it's pointless.

As for lilitu-lelu list, I've been thinkin about it, but it has one major drawback: I'd have to include the lelu models, which are plain terrible IMO. WHich is a pity, because for 1SS more and 1 movement less they bring more hurt than young nephs to the table.

[Zethal]

Yeah but the big thing I hate about this kind of tactic is it's abusing the game. Sure it works and it's powerful, but it's also cheap. It's like the Res bringing dogs and using them for bodies for something big. It's an abuse of the game. I guess what I should say is, I see no honor in playing like that :/ but that's me and that's my opinion on the matter. You are of course free to play how you like, as long as you and your opponent are having fun it's all good. =)

This comes up all the time...

Playing the win is not immoral, its not abusing anything and there is nothing wrong with it.

While I agree that it is unfortunate that Wyrd decided that it should be more powerful to slaughter your own guys on the first turn in a couple different crews your casting the blame on the wrong party when you see players who are taking advantage of that design choice.

[M_Ruckuss]

I agree, but just think fun is more important than winning, but that's just my opinion: "horses for courses" and all that. lol

[M_Ruckuss]

As promised some pics of (unfinished, models unmounted) bases.

I cut up some of the citadel/GW tree bases and filed/cut/biatch slapped them into place. Am thinking they will be autumnal Karn, although I concede wintery would also be cool Autumn would just be different, allow for a different painting approach and I really want to use some brass etch leaves!!!

Terror Tot 1

Lilith's base 1

Lilith's base 2

40mm

40mm

40mm

Terror Tot 2

40mm

All 3 Terror Tot bases

50mm

Terror Tot 3

[M_Ruckuss]

I can see your point, their not my favourite wyrd models but they will do for now, or at least until I can find an alternative proxy

[karn987]

Woah! Very nice man! I can't wait to see the rest and wish I had the motivation to go that far with bases =)

[M_Ruckuss]

Woah! Very nice man! I can't wait to see the rest and wish I had the motivation to go that far with bases =)

Cheers mate. I had just bought a wood, and was trying to work out whether to use the citadel trees or order some others (which I think I will as want the wood to looked different) and realised that with some work they could make some plastic inserts (and saves me building up the bases from scratch...!)

Played 2 games last night: (Lilith, Nekima, 3 terror tot Nephilim, Cherub, Black Blood Shaman)

v Collette-opponent moved to far forward and managed to spank cassandra, a mannequin and 2 corphyree in 2tuns. Then spent 3 turns failing will power duels trying to steal a relic ( in which time my cherub died..sniff) but eventually came out of it with 9vp, and more importantly really enjoyed the game.

v Perdita-had plant evidence. Manouvered REALLY well, only losing a tot who got "ninioed" to et myself up well for turns 3/4/5. Had 2 terrain features done then exposed Nekima, ended turn realising what I had done, opponent got right cards, Nekima ALSO got "ninioed" and he played the next few turns brilliantly and spanked me- I learned a lot tho, could have gone very differently...was one of the most enjoyable games I've played.

One question which came out of the game was if I create an illusionary forest in his half its a permanent piece of area terrain until cast again, right? So I should be able to plant evidence on it...??? Any thoughts

LOVING THS CREW! NEVERBORN THROUGH AND THROUGH (see what I did there!)

Edited October 28, 2010 by McDoogle

[karn987]

Hmmmm actually I have no clue on your question. I would think no as it is not a permanent terrain piece because well... it can go away heh. But I have no rules to back up my words on this one. I would poke Sketch and ask him directly about it and post the answer here. Or make a Rules Forum question on it.

But glad to hear you enjoyed the game! I assume you mean 3 Terror Tots and not 3 Young Nephilim, unless your playing a 40ss game or like Lilith with 0 cache at 35ss heh.

Yeah Nino is a fair bit of annoying, but Nekima would have been fine if she hadn't caused any damage yet that turn. You should be able to win at least 1 of the duels because Nino isn't the defender or the attacker in the duel, just like in Pandora's Expose Fear duels, so no Stubborn bonus.

Otherwise, you will feel out how to play against every crew as you play more, sounds like your doing well though =). Just keep practicing and looking for the combos hidden in the game, the Nephilim have several nice ones.

[M_Ruckuss]

Completely. I did mean terrors(- will edit post) I also realise I keep forgetting a lot of her triggers, especially defensive stuff. Im thinking of creating a mini card to have on the table to help me stop forgetting! She shouldn't have died, and I might even have ben able to salvage a draw/less decisive loss. To be fair I haven't even been playing 2 months and am still learning alot!

Will post it up-even if its allowed now it is cheap and will probs be nurfed at some point (probably rightly so). We are playing the woods as a diameter 3" circle- is this the best way to play it?

The black blood was quit funky, but realise he really needs to stay close t nekima to gain flight so she can keep up with rest of crew- she needs to get those blood counters asap and without flight I found last night she's too slow to keep up with rest of Nephilim!

[karn987]

Completely. I did mean terrors(- will edit post) I also realise I keep forgetting a lot of her triggers, especially defensive stuff. Im thinking of creating a mini card to have on the table to help me stop forgetting! She shouldn't have died, and I might even have ben able to salvage a draw/less decisive loss. To be fair I haven't even been playing 2 months and am still learning alot!

Will post it up-even if its allowed now it is cheap and will probs be nurfed at some point (probably rightly so). We are playing the woods as a diameter 3" circle- is this the best way to play it?

The black blood was quit funky, but realise he really needs to stay close t nekima to gain flight so she can keep up with rest of crew- she needs to get those blood counters asap and without flight I found last night she's too slow to keep up with rest of Nephilim!

See the Errata, it redefined how Illusionary Forest works and defines it as a 3" diameter circle.

As for the Black Blood Shaman, yes it is a bit slow especially compared to Nekima and the Mature, but only by 1". What the crew will often do is slow down for it to catch up or if you play your cards right, will pretty much hover right around it. Sure it slows you down a tad, but if you need to rocket off and hit something, just do it.

If you find your BB Shaman lagging behind, have a Tot move up to where you want him or most likely a bit ahead of it and have Lilith or your Totem Transposition the two. The Tot can EASILY catch up next turn and the Shaman will be where you need it =).

The idea of a quick ref sheet of your triggers etc is a good idea. Another one I often do with new people who wish to really learn their master/crew is make stand up tokens. Basically folded paper with the name of something written on it and we place it next to the model on the table. This way they can't forget it unless they don't look at the table ;D. After a game or two like this, you should be able to go without them and be basically trained with your crew =)