Samael Hopkins problems?

[Sarsemn]

So, I've been playing Malifaux on and off since it premiered last Gencon. One thing that has really bugged my play group and has confused us that it hasn't been brought up much here is Samael Hopkins.

None of us are scrubs or noobs at games of this type so we don't feel like we're just falling into a beginner's trap or we just don't know how to deal with him. But for some reason this model just seems way too good to us. Once fire bullets goes off (which is incredibly easy unless my card is misprinted), the amounts of damage he can do in a turn is so disgusting it just overcomes everything. Massive models worth several SS more than him just go down like they were made of paper. He gets even better against higher Ca models, which in many cases tend to be the less survivable ones anyway.

It's gotten to the point where we basically stopped playing for a while due to balance issues caused largely by him, and we have considered house ruling him to curb his power a bit(possibly making Fire Bullets a (1) instead of (0)) so we can safely get into the new releases.

Then I get on here, and see not one single similar complaint or comment. What's the deal? Do people not see his outright raw power(combined with decent survivability;he isn't exactly a glass cannon) as a problem? Has no one ever played a game or two where his sheer output made you pause and wonder if you did that right?

Edited September 7, 2010 by Sarsemn

[nilus]

Sam can put out the damage and some have complained but Its what the Guild is good at. It balanced again Resurrectionists survivability and summoning, Arcanist versatility and spawning and Neverborn mobility.

He's good but he isn't game breaking.

[shekbo]

Yeah, he's not exactly a glass cannon, but once he's down, he's points you ain't gonna see again. That's the weakness of the guild, they're limited in their healing and mostly nonexistant in their summoning, as a whole, so there's no replacing models lost.

For instance, let's say Samael shoots down a 5 ss punk zombie and a 2 ss canine remains controlled by Nicodem. Sure, that's 7 points down the drain, but Nic can use those 2 corpses to summon a 7 point Flesh Construct for only one action if he has a decently high crow in his hand. If Sam gets whacked, though, Sonnia's not seeing those points ever again.

[chaosobscuros]

I have always felt that Samael is almost an auto-include for the Guild. His damage output IS very intimidating. However, his low Df (even with his high Wounds) makes him an easy target. The key to defeating Samael is in utilizing your terrain and movement to deny him a target until you can engage him with your heavy hitters. A favorite McMourning tactic of mine is to use a Belle or two to Lure him into melee range of McMourning, a Flesh Construct or a Punk Zombie; all of which will make short work of him.

[Killionaire]

Sam's weakness is that damage only gets you so far. It's great if you have a clean shot, but there's ways of denying that. That's the guild's issue in general. Their main strength is great damage across the board. But they lack flexibility and mobility, while suffer attrition badly.

Lilith and Viktoria for example can go right into their lines and cut things up with incredible mobility.

Leveticus doesn't care how much damage you do. None of it matters unless you get ALL of his guys in a single turn.

Pandora is never letting you attack period, much less do anything useful during your turns due to determining your activation order.

[nilus]

Exactly. Also as far as being a Glass Canon. He has a lot of wounds but low defense, no defensive triggers and no abilities to keep him alive so he is pretty fragile by this games standards.

[TimeLapse]

His WP for a guild member is low as well being only a 5 and not haveing any incress to it, So like stated above lure and other wp based spell are really effect vs him. In my Nicadem list i would simply paralyze him with Rigor mortis. In my perdita list I would just shoot him first with nino and other family members and have done with it, My ramos list would have the most issue with him but I would just hope my spiders with DF 8 with arching screen can simply dodge the shots while i keep ramos out oof LoS.

Though for my money I would run Nino before samuel any day.

[huntroll]

Samael is not game-breaking, I'd even say that he is rather lackluster. Sure, he can kill anyone (especially casters w higher Ca) with a Rapid Fire-Flaming Bullets combo, but the problem is that an experienced player won't let him to shoot anyone with Rapid Fire.

I'm a Resser player, so I usually cast Distract on him with my Belles (so no Rapid Firing even if I fail my Lure), then I Lure him closer and finish him off.

You could help Samael with the Student of Conflict (Fast) or Perdita/Enslaved Neph/Abuela (Obey) to move (or Charge in case of Obey) closer to the enemy and be able to us Rapid Fire, but even then it's pretty hard to pull off if you are not able to out-activate the enemy or give Companion to him.

So, as I said he is definitely not unbalanced. However, if he were available to the Ressers... Lure + Rapid fire ftw.

[Goldstep]

Sam is fragile. I love using him, but... yeah. Fragile.

But like everything in this game, a little focus fire is worth the effort.

But most of the time it seems like you don't even have to focus fire him sso much as get one good hit in. As an example -- Young Neph at 10 inches can do a charge and melee expert attack and (thanks to the charge) can pretty easily kill Sam in one activation.

[tenabrae]

From the other side of the table i've always thought of him as a glass canon... he's a high ranged output model with no defensive abilities.

I've lost very few models to him, or more importantly, I've rarely had him in a situation I didn't control.

He doesn't have the nasty triggers or fast or a huge range so most crews can deal with him from out of danger distance or tie him up in melee while their nasties get in. Alternatively, you can pretty much just walk away from him.

[Poko]

First, activate Granny ortega. Give family to austringer. Activate perdy, obey sammy, obey him some more from totem, activate austringer from family, give Order to Samael, samael is now two full charge-ranges into enemy formation, with full action points. Of course you can do the same with Judge, and he's got even worse damage output in CC if I recall. And they don't even need severes, guild can confidently kill anything that's not a Master from merely weak damage with critical added.

As for hiding..if the enemy really feels like being a d***, he can say stop after his first terrain placed. Which gives you whole 3 pieces of area terrain on the board. Which translates, usually, to a full turn of being open to every ranged weapon guild has before getting close to enemy.