Killing Pandora

[Teal]

My friend and I recently started playing, him picking up the Viktorias box set and me grabbing the Pandora one. Our first couple of games right out of the box were crushing defeats on his part, but then he started proxying better models (in his opinion) to try them out, and our games started getting closer.

He still thinks though that Pandora seems extremely broken, and is pretty pissed off that she can single handedly kill any model in his crew in one turn (Soulstoned Pity, self loathing, self loathing, pacify...). I've tried to come up with tactics for him to use against me, tried to work on his list with him, but all to no avail. So I'm wondering if any of the Viktoria experts out there have any tips for him on how to kill Pandora, or any good lists that he should consider.

[karn987]

Pandora is one of the hardest masters to go against and to play correctly. She is complex and all her abalities are hit or miss. If they work, she is deadly. If they don't, she is easy to kill.

As for Viktoria herself vs Pandora, I don't have much for you. She doesn't have a ton that is especially useful against Pandora, not many people do. The best thing I can say is threat saturation. Give Pandora to many targets to deal with at once and don't let her easily pick off your crew one by one. This is what she really wants to do, single you out and take you down while spreading her web over the rest of the crew.

But against Pandora in general, here are the major points to always consider.

1) She is completely reliant on the Wp stat. So look for models with high Wp and Stubborn if you can. Models with low Wp are just going to get bowled over by her and her web of abilities. A note though, PANDORA STRIPS IMMUNE TO INFLUENCE WITHIN 12" OF HER. To many people forget this when going against her. The ability is useless vs her most of the time.

2) Pandora is really weak in combat, but some of her crew isn't. Kade and Teddy are extremely deadly in melee so always keep an eye out for them. If you get the chance, focus fire and kill these two asap. Generally they serve as her vanguard or a flanking force held in reserve long enough to make sure your offense is crushed.

3) 12" is her zone of doom. Inside it she can do what she wants to you. But if you are outside it, your safer. Try to avoid this zone. This isn't always possible as a good Pandora player will never let you out of it if you want to do anything.

4) When Pandora starts her Pacify/Incite train accross the board, stop it. Seariously, these are free Wds she is doing to you and screwing up your activation order. But worse! She is pushing 4" each time she does one of these to you. She can cover most of the field very quickly if you let her. So stop it on the first one if you can. Pandora players hate using an Ap to move because pacify/incite is a free move essentially for her. So bait her with a wp 6-7+ model just barely in her 12" range and try to shut down the chain right then an there. Cheat high and hope for the best.

5) She relies completely on spells. So models who can counter spell are a blessing against her.

6) Blasts. Blasts. Blasts. Pandora can't defend herself against a blast that is caused off of her other models. (hint hint, the sorrows around her are low Df and rather easy to hit ;D). That and Pulses and Aura's. Anything that doesn't have to target her to get her is what you want to go for.

7) Kill the sorrows asap. They give her Martyr to use and greatly increase her damage potential. They can also be a HUGE pain in the ass with link shinanigans and the ocassional paralyze they can pull off.

Otherwise, it's just general tactics that you need to figure out. Viktoria is a cool master and there are tons of tactica threads on her. Have your Viky player read them and just try to figure out the best things you can do. But vs Pandora, your a bit SOL. Crews and Masters are not 100% effective vs all other crews and masters. Viky is dangerous and Pandora will do everything she can to stay away. You can try to hit her with Ranged and just hammer her. Or you can go in with heavy hitters and try to nail her. She is really squishy when you can finally get to her.

But as of right now, Viky's choices are a bit limited and it's just a bad match up. Sure you can get wins, Im not saying you cant, but its not easy. Focus your attacks and try to kill her crew before you go after her. Especially the Sorrows, get them ASAP.

For a bit of reference, Im a Pandora player. She is my primary master and I've put probably to much time into playing her ;D So this is all from the view of a Pandora player and what hurts them the most.

[Ropetus]

You should check the thread Extra Errata Items in the Rules Forum. Pandora cannot Pacify friendly models so her mobility is much reduced. In practice this means she will most likely have to use an AP or two each activation on moving instead of attacking which tones her down a bit. Also, Link was errataed to only working on Walks and at the end of activations which means Pandy cannot drag her entire Sorrow crew along with her.

Viktorias are really an ideal victim for Pandora. They all have manageable Wp and are better in offense than defense for maximized Self Loathing fun. Wd levels are also lowish all across the board.

Ronin which are the backbone of most Vikroria crews, don't actually work that well against Pandy. They have low Wp and are prime targets for Self Loathing with their on dmg flips and low number of Wd. Harmless even gives Pandy free Wp Duels to win (and push 4" each time).

Of the Mercenaries, Misaki should work against her quite nicely. She has a high Wp of 7 and her lower Df and Wd levels don't really matter since Pandora targets Wp and deals only 1 Wd most of the time (unless combined with a hoard of Sorrows next to you, but the errataed Pandora is less likely to manage that). She has access to Blast damage, which Pandora loathes and Wind could allow you to catch her in places you otherwise could not.

Taelor works in a similar way with her Wp 7, being a bit less manouverable but more resilient and hard hitting. The latter however works to Pandora's advantage with Self Loathing. I think Misaki works better against Pandy.

The Gunslinger should also be good, despite low Wp. He is quite immune to Self Loathing as he has high Wd and no melee weapons, which means he will just Bash himself for 0/1/2. He is very good at keeping Kade and Candy at bay thanks to Ruthless and high Cb.

Of note is also Hamelin. He also has a high Wp, large amount of Wd, weak melee weapon (so Self Loathing hurts less) and can throw some serious wrenches in Pandora's schemes. Obeying your own models may not be possible due to Pandora being nearby but he can Obey Pandora's Minions to attack her. A crazed Teddy aiming back at Pandora should make her worry and is quite a win win situation: either Teddy takes some Wd from losing the Wp Duel or Pandora takes some serious smackdown. He is very survivable too since Kade cannot target him. Also, Black Death is some untargeted damage for Pandora.

A key to beating Pandora is forcing her to use her resources (especially Soulstones) to stay alive. Attacking her with high Wp hard hitting models and force her to Soulstone the Expose Fears Duels should go a long way. She cannot throw those Soulstoned Project Emotions your way if she has used all Stones defending. This is not that easy though and a lot depends on your Control Hand.

-Ropetus

EDIT: Viktoria could also hire Jack Daw and a bunch of The Hanged. Then go hit Pandora with one of them and see her start crying when she has on Wp Duels for the rest of the game.

Edited July 3, 2010 by Ropetus

[Teal]

Thanks for all the tips guys! I'll pass them along to my friend today before we play our next game.

We have been playing with the errata, but I generally get around that by using my sorrows to cast WP duel spells on Pandora (either through siphon magic or their own spells) to push her into position, as I've found that unless they're offensively moving to get within 3" of something, they really have nothing else to do. My friend has also been running a list that consists of Misaki, Hamelin, Taelor, and of course the Viks, but it just seems to me like Hamelin is a waste of points in a 25ss game, and that everything else dies fairly quick to self loathings and other spells. Though Misaki with her 16" threat range after casting wind is a pain to deal with.

[Ropetus]

My friend has also been running a list that consists of Misaki, Hamelin, Taelor, and of course the Viks, but it just seems to me like Hamelin is a waste of points in a 25ss game.

This should explain it all. Those three models add up to exactly 25 SS which would mean they don't have any Soulstones left for the game. Since Viktorias are so fragile, Soulstones are essential in keeping them alive. When the Viks have Soulstones for those critical resist flips, its much harder for Pandora to get an irresistable casting value on Project Emotions.

In that point range Hamelin should be dropped maybe for the Gunslinger and 5 Soulstones for Viktorias. Hamelin really doesn't have enough targets at this point level to be worth it.

-Ropetus

[mantastyle]

Hi, I'm the hapless viki player mentioned above, with your suggestions and a little experimentation of my own I think I've found my general strategy. As said before threat saturation is the way to go. Also you simply cannot let pacify or pity go off. If those are stopped Pandora cannot get her extra movement to either escape from melee range or get in self loathing range. Then you simply have to charge in and hope you can kill her right then and there. The last game I played with him went something like that. As far as I can tell there is not much a viki starter set con do beyond that to dora. Anyways feel free to contradict me. I'm rather new to the game.

However on another note I've been told that the vikies are a pretty easy caster to play but I would disagree it strikes me that they are rather easy to kill being only defence 6 and 7 wounds per vik. They are also the mercenaries are not very fast but tend to follow the same general guidelines. Am I right in saying that? Or just dead wrong?

[Lorenz]

ok first off my master only has 2 defense... and most masters have near 10 wounds. you have effectively 14 wounds if they are 7 wds each. so I do not feel that you are that much of a disadvantage and also you have two masters that can use soulstones. I would recommend using them carefully or you will burn through them twice as fast but also that could mean twice as many devistating attacks per turn... Hans is a nice addition to the viki army with his custom ammo and long range. also blasts are no ones friend when there are linked sorrows roaming around. target the sorrow and blast the master then they dont get to use a soul stone to aid in def.

[tenabrae]

ok first off my master only has 2 defense... and most masters have near 10 wounds. you have effectively 14 wounds if they are 7 wds each. so I do not feel that you are that much of a disadvantage and also you have two masters that can use soulstones. I would recommend using them carefully or you will burn through them twice as fast but also that could mean twice as many devistating attacks per turn.

2 defense after they make a Wp duel, which they take damage for failing in most cases.

Pandora has a cache of 5, the vikkies have a cache of 0.

[mantastyle]

2 defense after they make a Wp duel, which they take damage for failing in most cases.

Pandora has a cache of 5, the vikkies have a cache of 0.

Which is why when people say that dora is super easy to kill I must disagree. She effectively defends herself at df 7 with an additional flip afterward that can also be cheated/soulstoned. With two ways to stop an attack dora is probs more tanky than perdita.

[Ropetus]

She effectively defends herself at df 7 with an additional flip afterward that can also be cheated/soulstoned. With two ways to stop an attack dora is probs more tanky than perdita.

Not to mention that if you fizzle an attack once, she won't be there to get attacked anymore...

Anyone stating Pandora is easy to kill doesn't know what they're talking about. Of course there are counters which make her think about where she can safely go (See the Unseen, Blind Justice, Trail of Fear, Howl to name a few) but in general she is one of the hardest to take out.

-Ropetus

[karn987]

Anyone stating Pandora is easy to kill doesn't know what they're talking about.

-Ropetus

Actually she can be really easy to kill. I know because I play her way to much. So back the truck up a bit man and think about it.

She is easy to kill if you have blasts, auras, or pulses that deal damage. Then all you have to do is hit the things next to her with the blasts and chain the damage onto her or just pulse/aura. She won't survive many of them and Raspy can easily drop her in about 2 hits if she hits severe damage with all of her buffs in place. Shatter works nicely to as does exploding spiders etc.

So she is easy to kill if you know what your talking about the right things. Don't jump the gun so quickly. For some crews and models she is easy to kill, but for most she is very hard to kill. But still, you don't need to go blasting people ok? ;D

Edited July 5, 2010 by karn987

[tenabrae]

She's easy to kill if you're playing one of the masters (and builds) that has the tools to take her out, but there are crews that are going to be at a dissadvantage from the get-go.

[Ropetus]

It's not a taken that there will be something next to Pandora. Not with her mobility.

If Pandora sees Rasputina across the table she would be a fool to take her Sorrow train along. No, in that case she doesn't Link to Sorrows and takes it solo as the Sorrows are just a liability waiting to get blasted by December's Curse. When she is alone she has the advantage as every attack against her requires a Wp Duel.

Tina can still get blasts from her own models but those are either so slow (Gamin, Moles, Golem) that catching Pandy with them should be a challenge or so valuable she often can't afford it (Cerberus) and definitely cannot get 3 casts off it. And this is what Pandy should use the Sorrows for: Link to enemy models so Raspy cannot bounce December's Curse off her Minions using Ice Mirror.

Any Master is easy to kill if played poorly. You could say Lilith is easy to kill when she cheats down her Df to get hit on purpose but that's not part of a serious conversation.

-Ropetus

Edited July 5, 2010 by Ropetus

[karn987]

She's easy to kill if you're playing one of the masters (and builds) that has the tools to take her out, but there are crews that are going to be at a dissadvantage from the get-go.

Exactly, and thats the point I was trying to make. The broad statement he made was not accurate. People who say she is easy to kill probably play one of these crews and builds frequently enough that they have this impression of her.

But at the same time, as I said, there is the vast majority of models out there who are at a disadvantage vs her. I was just bringing focus back to the fact there are crews who are good vs her.