Question about Pigcharge

[Shades]

I searched the forum to the answer to this question, but I haven't seen where this question is answered directly. My apologies if it already is.

For reference: "Pigcharge: Push this model up to its Cg. This model may interrupt the push to make 1 Gore Strike which receives +1 twist for the damage flip. Continue the push after resolving the attack." The errata replaces the description for Stampede, but not for Pigcharge.

Pushing up to Cg implies that I can choose to move a distance less than Cg. True?

I would have thought that the rule's intention is for the pig to be required to move its full Charge distance. One of the discussions seemed to insinuate that point-of-view. The discussion illustrated how the pig would travel through three intervening targets, attacking the first one, and then reverse direction on the next action, and attack the last one.

However, there are many discussions that express gratitude/relief that the phrase up to gives the option to choose the distance traveled. But if I can choose the distance, I can essentially prevent the Charge if I want to. I could even keep the pig at a standstill.

[dreadpiratelynx]

As Stampede says that you target the closest non-pig model in LoS for a Pigcharge, I'm pretty sure the intent is that you have to move at least into melee range or your full Cg, whichever is less.

[Shades]

Good observation, dreadpirate. That works for me. Thanks for the reply!

[Gremlin Swarm]

The Stampede/Pigcharge interaction is a bit of a pain to figure out, but my friends and I have been playing it that a stampeding pig will run up to the target and gore it.

A non-stampeding pig, however, can pigcharge any distance up to its cg, in any path (it doesn't have to be a straight line), and may attack one target along the path of the charge. One good example of this I've seen described is a pig charging out from behind a wall, goring a target, and continuing the charge to get back behind the wall.

On the downside, a non-stampeding pig can't pass through other models' bases when doing pigcharges. (That's a specific thing to stampede.)

[Shades]

Thanks, Gremlin Swarm. For the Stampede, do you require that the pig stops upon contacting the target, or do you allow it to continue moving up to its full Cg, like a non-Stampeding Pigcharge? If you require it to stop, what part of the Stampede rule leads you to that conclusion?

Thanks for helping interpret the rules on this.

[Hookers]

I don't know, its being picky on RAW but all stampede says is that you must push towards the target and may only strike the target, in other words you can't get there and strike someone else.

however "towards the target" has no bearing on the language "may" and "up to." right now i'd say that yes you can stop your pigcharge wherever, and in fact this would be a good way to use all your ap on pigcharge so that you may (0) eat your fill.

i'd ask your question in the rules discussion forum if WS doesn't see it here, because honestly if they intend for you to charge your full distance then it needs to be reworded and should be put into the new errata. i'd bring it to their attention because i see no reason why you'd have to move the full distance right now as it is currently written.

if gremlins are a "weaker" faction there is no reason to try and imply intentions that the author of the rules may or may not have had that restrict their effective use.

[Gremlin Swarm]

I've seen the distance part of a stampeding pigcharge interpreted both ways (have to stop at the target, and can keep going).

Personally, I tend to lean towards a more literal interpretation of the rules, which would require the pig to be 'stuck' charging the first target until it (or the pig) is dead, then go after the next nearest target, and so on. (Though since pigcharge says to 'push up to' the pig's cg, you can keep hammering away at the target with pigcharges (since there's no minimum distance listed for pigcharge)).

I go with this one because of the 'targets closest model' and 'must push towards the target' bits.

I view it as one reason to actually keep the pig under control. (A non-stampeding pig can direct its pigcharge anywhere, after all, as well as select any target along the path of the charge.)

Either way, a well-handled pig is nasty to deal with. (I speak from experience on this.)

BTW: Another thing to remember about stampedes--they target the closest non-pig model. This means friendly models can be targeted. (Keep your Gremlins and Mosquitoes clear until Mr. Jones or a Whisperer can calm that pig down.) Admittedly, this doesn't come up often, but still...

Edited May 22, 2010 by Gremlin Swarm

[Shades]

Well, I just played my 7th or so game today, and I finally had the opportunity to actually set up my pigs for a Stampeding Pigcharge for the first time! Now, that I've actually finally played it, it occurs to me that the rule might as well be interpreted that you Pigcharge up to Cg, meaning that you can choose to either stop at the target or continue. If the rule forced you to move the full Cg distance, you could still effectively move less than the Cg distance by looping around or reversing direction. So in either interpretation of the rule, you Push to the target and then can choose how much farther to Push.

[dreadpiratelynx]

You can choose to push past the target if you wish, but keep in mind that when you're required to move towards another model you can't finish your move further away than you began.

[Gremlin Swarm]

That's a good way to look at it, too--the pig must end its stampeding pigcharge closer to the target (as determined at the beginning of the pigcharge) than it began.

It still leaves plenty of reason to have non-stampeding pigs, though.

[Shades]

Hmm. I'm missing something. What rule requires the pig to end a Pigcharge a further distance away from the target than the distance it began from the target?

[Hookers]

:question:

it must end it closer to the target than it began

[Shades]

I'm asking, what is the source of that rule? Is it written in Pigcharge? In Stampede? Somewhere under Movement? In the errata?

Please cite the specific location where I can read it.

As far as I can tell, I can end a Pigcharge farther away from the target than I began, if we're assuming that I move the pig the full Cg.

Let's say I begin 3" away from the target. I Pigcharge directly towards the target and continue the full Cg distance (12") through the model, which Pigcharge allows me to do. That movement places the piglet 9" away from the target, minus the width of the target's base, so roughly a little less than 8" away from the target. In this situation, the pig ends the Pigcharge farther away from the target than it began. Sorry if I've overlooked something blatantly obvious, but I don't see a rule that specifies that the pig is precluded from performing this action, i.e. a rule that says the pig must end closer than when it started.

[Hookers]

oh its in the errata on the second page i believe in the definition for what "towards/away from a target" is

there is also "directly towards/away"

"Toward/away from something (another model, a

specific point, table edge, etc.) must move by the

shortest route. A model moving in this manner

cannot end the movement further from/closer too

the thing than it began."

Edited May 25, 2010 by Hookers

[Gremlin Swarm]

Okay...I officially feel stupid. (Stoopahd!)

I actually read that bit defining towards/away, and totally forgot it.

(I need to brush up on my reading more often, I guess.)

Edited May 25, 2010 by Gremlin Swarm

[Shades]

Thanks, Hookers.

So the pig can basically pass through or bounce off the target (or technically, off of the farthest melee radius), as long as the distance between the target and the end-point does not exceed the distance between the target and the origin.

For example, if I Pigcharge beginning 3" away from the target, the pig may end the movement within melee range of the target or anywhere within a 3" radius of the target. It may not move up to its full Cg distance if that movement places the pig further than a 3" radius from the target.

If I may speculate....I doubt the designers wrote the last sentence of the "Toward/Away From" definition considering what effect it would have when combined with the Pigcharge. I suspect it was written to prevent using circuitous routes as a means to defeat the intent of "move toward the target using the shortest route". That said, the combined effect is close enough to what I think they want to achieve with Pigcharge. A little flaky, but close enough.

If it were up to me, I'd specify that Pigcharge requires the model to Push to the target, and then optionally permits the model to Push further, not to exceed its Cg distance for the total movement for the action.

Edited May 26, 2010 by Shades