Pandora Turn 1 Kill

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Thanks WS, that will help next time I take on Pandy and friends

Keep in mind that Pandora's Pacify and Incite Actions are:

A) Not Spells.

Are Wp->Wp Duels between her and her target. So, if she wins in those, she can activate Fading Memories.

[nilus]

one point on this not stated yet is that a lot of Ortegas have stubborn, giving +2 Wp on defence - this crew seems to have the best tools for taking her down?

Things of note here

1) Perdita does not have stubborn, which only comes into play because Pandora strips her immune to influence ability. So be careful with her around Pandy

2) The rest of the Ortegas do okay. A first turn Papa Loco bomb right into the center of the Pandy/sorrow group hug will ruin the strategy above very quickly.

3) Lady Justice's see the unseen spell is also dynamite against Pandora. I almost think that Lady J running with some Ortegas and Death Marshals would work really well.

[Atticus]

I'm afraid a local Pandora player may try this strategy at our tourney this weekend. Any suggestions for a Resurrectionist player to guard against it? I'm planning on running either Seamus or Nicodem in the event, both have WP7 which is good, it will at least be an even match. I'm leaning towards taking Nicodem if facing Pandora, because he has a spell with blast damage, so I can avoid the WP duel if Pandora has any models linked to her. But I have to be able to survive the possible alpha strike.

Do you think it's possible to arrange your crew such that Pandora and 7 sorrows can't get within 3" of your Master? I think so, but it might require setting up on the back line and 28" of potential movement is huge.

Any other ideas?

[Justin]

I think I've heard it said in here that if Pandora can't drag her sorrows around off of her 4" push, it would make her crap, so the ultimate way to fix the problem is to deny the sorrow's ability to link to each other.

I disagree with this.

If it is ruled that a linked model does not move on a push (which is how we all played before the errata) Pandora will be fine.

She can link 3 sorrows at the beginning of the game, then pacify all three moving 12". Then she can walk 3". As soon as she walks, all linked sorrows will be pushed into base to base with her because she made a move action, and link isn't broken until the closing phase. So, Pandora moves a total of 15" with three linked sorrows in base contact and still has 1 general AP, 1 casting expert AP, and she can still pacify...just like she did before the errata.

Also, since a linked model is "pushed" into base to base when the model it is linked to is moved, sorrows linked to other sorrows will not move into base to base when Pandora moves effectively making their link useless, without explicitly ruling it so.

[Justin]

I'm afraid a local Pandora player may try this strategy at our tourney this weekend. Any suggestions for a Resurrectionist player to guard against it? I'm planning on running either Seamus or Nicodem in the event, both have WP7 which is good, it will at least be an even match. I'm leaning towards taking Nicodem if facing Pandora, because he has a spell with blast damage, so I can avoid the WP duel if Pandora has any models linked to her. But I have to be able to survive the possible alpha strike.

Do you think it's possible to arrange your crew such that Pandora and 7 sorrows can't get within 3" of your Master? I think so, but it might require setting up on the back line and 28" of potential movement is huge.

Any other ideas?

Deploy at the back of your board edge out of range. (this is very possible with most every deployment type, particularly if you deploy at a slight angle from them)

Run Seamus with at least one rotten belle (duh) and a bunch of canine remains. Activate Seamus and use trail of fear. (-2 Wp to all within 12") Activate the canine remains so that when Pandora runs up to you, you still have the belle to activate. Use the belle to lure the one sorrow actually linked to Pandora out of base to base. The link will end in the closing phase.

Hope for initiative next turn. Burn a stone if need be. Activate Seamus first, lower Pandora's Wp by 2, and cap her with your .50 cal. and finish her off with live for pain. She'll have no linked sorrows to sluff off to.

Now, he may have linked 3 sorrows to pandora. But the crew building math adds up that you could have 3 belles waiting to activate if the rest of your crew was canine remains.

Now, Pandora (playing like this) is the only list you could possibly beat with this crap, so don't take it unless you have a side board of some sort...or you really hate this guy.

Edit: Keep in mind, I thought this up in about two minutes. So, there may be holes. You were warned.

Edited April 12, 2010 by Justin

[Atticus]

Trail of Fear and the WP7 is the main reason I was considering Seamus. My concern was the Pandora player using 6 or 7 Sorrows to move within 3" of either Caster, then using essentially three AP to cast me to death, taking 6 or 7 wounds for each WP duel lost. If the Doppleganger is included, he can win initiative and pull of the first turn kill.

I'm not as worried if I can avoid the first turn kill. I can't have enough Belles to lure that many Sorrows away and still hope to field a competitive list. I could build my sideboard that way, but I would have to limit myself to Seamus only, since I run a slightly different list with Nicodem.

Seamus still has to win a WP duel to shoot Pandora and if he loses she moves out of range. For this reason I like Nicodem with the blast damage spell. I could put a Crooked Man in though, which might have some uses.

Thanks.

[Atticus]

Use the belle to lure the one sorrow actually linked to Pandora out of base to base. The link will end in the closing phase.

I need to read more carefully. That is a good point that I overlooked. He can't put all 7 around Pandora, so only one is linked to her (only one can link?) and the rest are linked to each other daisy-chained? So if the first turn kill doesn't go off, I can break her link by pulling only one Sorrow away, then hope to go first.

[Justin]

Trail of Fear and the WP7 is the main reason I was considering Seamus. My concern was the Pandora player using 6 or 7 Sorrows to move within 3" of either Caster, then using essentially three AP to cast me to death, taking 6 or 7 wounds for each WP duel lost. If the Doppleganger is included, he can win initiative and pull of the first turn kill.

I'm not as worried if I can avoid the first turn kill. I can't have enough Belles to lure that many Sorrows away and still hope to field a competitive list. I could build my sideboard that way, but I would have to limit myself to Seamus only, since I run a slightly different list with Nicodem.

Seamus still has to win a WP duel to shoot Pandora and if he loses she moves out of range. For this reason I like Nicodem with the blast damage spell. I could put a Crooked Man in though, which might have some uses.

Thanks.

You can deploy out of range of the first turn kill. MAXIMUM range is 31" (which I find doubtful). The board is 36". The only deployment type where he can possibly be in range if you don't want him to be is standard. But if there is some terrain between you and him he has to go around (or you deploy at a slight angle) he will be out of range.

As for not being able to lure that many sorrows...think about it. Pandora can't link that many sorrows. Only six models fit in base to base, and then she couldn't move. Max she can have and still move is three. So, what is he going to do? Link them in a chain like everyone was talking about. And if you lure the FIRST sorrow in the chain...what would happen to the rest?

With the sorrows out of base to base, you actually wouldn't even need initiative second turn as he would have to move his sorrow chain back up before doing anything. (it's actually best you lose initiative first turn as your belles are essentially waiting to see what he'll do)

With the -2 from Seamus you are comparing his Wp 7 to her 5, and he does more damage than Nico all in one hit. Plus he can companion the belles to do it all at once, if need be.

[Justin]

I need to read more carefully. That is a good point that I overlooked. He can't put all 7 around Pandora, so only one is linked to her (only one can link?) and the rest are linked to each other daisy-chained? So if the first turn kill doesn't go off, I can break her link by pulling only one Sorrow away, then hope to go first.

Now you're thinking!

Although you may need three.

Also, the -2 Wp from Seamus makes the sorrows easier to lure.

Edited April 12, 2010 by Justin

[TheViking]

Geez I like how me being a guinea pig and gettin' a beat down has lead to all this discussion. Haha glad I could be of "help" to all of you guys.

[Omadon]

Lalo - you're presenting these oppinions as if they're axiomatic. The Panda player Will do this, and so forth. Why wouldn't you link to three as panda? What on earth would possess you not to? Pulling sorrows off her is good though - but not quite the trumpcard that you claim it to be.

On a sidenote, I believe that Seamus has the most tools to deal with her. -2WP is horrible for her. The ability to easily out-number her with dogs so that Seamus can go last is good too. Sorrows don't have a great deal of DF, so you can one-shot them with his totem, and the more you kill, the better. Once she loses enough sorrows that she can't instagib seamus, then you should be alright. Don't waste stones on anything that isnt defending against her/getting a gun shot through for love nor money though. You need those.

Also - consider, she's by no means immune to WP duels herself, terrifying 14 with - WP is still needing a 9, which late in a turn might not be possible, and it's even harder for the sorrows - ramming Seamus into the middle with an AoE4 Terrifying14 should do alot to ruin her. Or at the very least strip her of her sorrows.

EDIT: On a sidenote, I'd love to see how Panda would manage if she took a hit from a *Hanged ^^

FURTHER EDIT: The maximum range of Panda is far, far greater than that. You people really don't read her spells do you? (Although it is kinda risky, but in situations where people are trying specifically to hide from you, then I'd say it was worth it)

FURTHER, FURTHER EDIT: Thankyou atticus

Edited April 14, 2010 by Omadon

[Atticus]

Why wouldn't you link to three as panda? What on earth would possess you not to?

That's what I was thinking that more than one Sorrow would be linked to Pandora. Although if the Pandora player is playing a lot of Sorrows on her there will be some daisy chaining.

EDIT: On a sidenote, I'd love to see how Panda would manage if she took a hit from a haunted ^^

Do you mean the "Hanged"? I think they could be rough on Pandora, but they are expensive at 8 stones.

FURTHER EDIT: The maximum range of Panda is far, far greater than that. You people really don't read her spells do you? (Although it is kinda risky, but in situations where people are trying specifically to hide from you, then I'd say it was worth it)

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here. Maximum range of Pandora is greater than what, 28"? I think her ability causes a wound loss within 12" if WP duel failed. But losing one wound is manageable, it's the Sorrows causing that to be multiple wounds that is the real problem and they have to be within 3" of the target I believe. So that may be avoidable. It will be tough, but I think it can be done.

[heckler]

i'm pretty sure the link rule says a model may only have one model linked to it. i dont know where this link 3 thing came from.

just make it so a linked model loses the link when something links to it and all is fixed really. then panda drags around one sorrow and it's not a huge deal.

as far as deploying against it goes, it's rough. it is likely the panda player could train right up to the screening stuff, cause a wp check, kill it and move beyond it. the first turn doesn't matter either. when i did this, i actually opted to go 2nd so i just activated all my stuff after his. this allowed me to go about my business unhindered. the doppleganger would really be there to ensure initiative for the 2nd turn if the first did not go well.

the ortegas would not be a bad matchup. perdita's wp is still 7 so she is equal, the rest of them tend to be 8 in defensive duels and have quite a bit of killing potential for when they actually break through. also they can companion each other making them able to all out strike when necessary. i could see nino with a decent hand doing pandora in.

a peacebringer can do 8 damage from perdita. 5 for severe, and up to 3 rams if you soulstone and cheat the rams in.

[Atticus]

i'm pretty sure the link rule says a model may only have one model linked to it. i dont know where this link 3 thing came from.

No, Link says this model may only Link to one model. It does not prohibit a model from having multiple models linked to it. At least that is my understanding of the rule.

[Justin]

Lalo - you're presenting these oppinions as if they're axiomatic. The Panda player Will do this, and so forth. Why wouldn't you link to three as panda? What on earth would possess you not to? Pulling sorrows off her is good though - but not quite the trumpcard that you claim it to be.

On a sidenote, I believe that Seamus has the most tools to deal with her. -2WP is horrible for her. The ability to easily out-number her with dogs so that Seamus can go last is good too. Sorrows don't have a great deal of DF, so you can one-shot them with his totem, and the more you kill, the better. Once she loses enough sorrows that she can't instagib seamus, then you should be alright. Don't waste stones on anything that isnt defending against her/getting a gun shot through for love nor money though. You need those.

Also - consider, she's by no means immune to WP duels herself, terrifying 14 with - WP is still needing a 9, which late in a turn might not be possible, and it's even harder for the sorrows - ramming Seamus into the middle with an AoE4 Terrifying14 should do alot to ruin her. Or at the very least strip her of her sorrows.

EDIT: On a sidenote, I'd love to see how Panda would manage if she took a hit from a haunted ^^

FURTHER EDIT: The maximum range of Panda is far, far greater than that. You people really don't read her spells do you? (Although it is kinda risky, but in situations where people are trying specifically to hide from you, then I'd say it was worth it)

We are working under the assumption the Pandora player is going for the turn one kill, as outlined in the first post in this thread. Sure, you can play Pandora differently, but not and still get the turn 1 kill, which is what he was worried about. And I mentioned that you can bring three belles, to pull three sorrows off of her and even manage to activate them last. So, her linking three sorrows is really no problem at all. Considering Seamus's trail of fear and the sorrow's Wp, it is very unlikely that any of the sorrows will resist the spell.

Also, if he shoots Pandora 28" up the board into an entire crew with no protection or back up except a bunch of sorrows which get lured away from Pandora before she gets completely surrounded by dogs/shotby Seamus/what have you, yeah, I'd say luring the sorrows off of her is game over.

And the maximum range of the turn one kill isn't determined by her spells, it's determined by the sorrow's emotional stress, which is onlt 3". Sure, Pandora can mess things up on her own, but for the one shot absolute maximum range is 31"...and I really doubt even that is possible. (especially since most of the sorrows will be lined up, causing those in back to be out of range)

Edited April 13, 2010 by Justin

[Omadon]

if thats the general concensus, I need to bring my panda list to more tournaments ^^

However, yeah - I do think belles present alot of issues for her. As the Panda player though my plan would be to neutralize the only model with use soulstones as quickly as possible, killing them aside - I'd hope to at least hit him with a mental anguish. On a sidenote - what do you plan to kill her with? Because if you plan to use trail of fear to lower the WP for the sorrows so that the belles have an easier time, that means his flintlock won't be pointed at panda. Just means that one of the sorrows that you don't have a line on with the belles gets insta-gibbed.

[Atticus]

On a sidenote - what do you plan to kill her with? Because if you plan to use trail of fear to lower the WP for the sorrows so that the belles have an easier time, that means his flintlock won't be pointed at panda. Just means that one of the sorrows that you don't have a line on with the belles gets insta-gibbed.

I guess you are talking about this all happening in one turn, so if Seamus activates first to use Trail of Fear he won't be able to shoot Pandora because the Sorrows will still be in place. A couple of thoughts on that: (1) You are correct, I would activate Seamus last and just let the Belles try to Lure the Sorrows away, with an CA 8 for Lure, they should be successful against the Sorrows. I would save Trail of Fear to make sure I can shoot Pandora and not fail having her run away. (2) My expected list against Pandora will include a Copycat Killer and a Convict Gunslinger with the three Belles or possibly a Crooked Man in place of a Belle. This should allow for plenty of shooting at Pandora and the Sorrows. (3) Taking out the Sorrows is priority one anyway, so even if Pandora sloughs off the damage to Sorrows killing them, that's great. She's not nearly as scary without Sorrows backing her up.

Pandora is scary, but I have an idea of how to deal with her if I get the chance. My concern is the alpha strike that another thread referenced, with the Doppleganger she can almost guarantee that she gets to go first, with 7 linked Sorrows using Incite/Pacify multiple times she can move 28" and be within range to kill Seamus before I even get a chance to activate a model. My point with this thread was "what can I do to guard against that?" Careful deployment seems to be the only answer. The rest falls into the general "fighting Pandora" subject.

[Justin]

I think activating Seamus last first turn is a mistake. You need to activate the belles last to get those sorrows off of Pandora. Take her out the next turn. Think about it, if her sorrows aren't near, she still can't insta kill, which is obviously her whole plan if she's running that list, so even with initiative the next turn she's just going to move her sorrows back up...which can then be lured away again. Or (and this is what I would do) a canine remains could wonder up to her and all of a sudden all those ranged spells she has can only target it.

Also keep in mind, this whole thing hinges on activating your belles AFTER she shoots up the board, so you need enough models to make that happen.

[Omadon]

Then you have another problem - miss her once, and she fading memorys into one of the sorrows you moved. Then she has a barrier. You -need- to save Seamus to try and pressure her. Praying to get the first initiative when you're looking at a doppleganger is a baadd idea. There is no reason whatsoever to use Seamus before pandora - If you save him til last, not only do you get a shot at her, you also get the chance at engaging her, going first, and then dropping a terrifying 14 aura on her sorrows. 6WP-8CA is fine if you're trying to lure stuff, they need to beat you by three on all of them, and if you can stick them all seperate in his terrifying range, with 3 WP and terrifying 14, then she isn't getting them back

However, I do agree on the part where you need to activate the belles after her - so taking seamus, a few belles and then allloott of dogs/the totem seems the best way to achieve that.

[Joona]

Or (and this is what I would do) a canine remains could wonder up to her and all of a sudden all those ranged spells she has can only target it.

None of her spells have the ranged attack symbol so no luck there.

[Justin]

None of her spells have the ranged attack symbol so no luck there.

Ranged spells without the ranged attack symbol can be used while in melee, but must be used on the model(s) you are in melee with. So, if she's swarmed by canine remains, good luck with that.

[Justin]

Then you have another problem - miss her once, and she fading memorys into one of the sorrows you moved. Then she has a barrier. You -need- to save Seamus to try and pressure her. Praying to get the first initiative when you're looking at a doppleganger is a baadd idea. There is no reason whatsoever to use Seamus before pandora - If you save him til last, not only do you get a shot at her, you also get the chance at engaging her, going first, and then dropping a terrifying 14 aura on her sorrows. 6WP-8CA is fine if you're trying to lure stuff, they need to beat you by three on all of them, and if you can stick them all seperate in his terrifying range, with 3 WP and terrifying 14, then she isn't getting them back

However, I do agree on the part where you need to activate the belles after her - so taking seamus, a few belles and then allloott of dogs/the totem seems the best way to achieve that.

The reason to use seamus before Pandora is that if you save him til last, you won't be able to activate the belles after pandora moves up, because you simply won't have enough models. Of course, this depends on his list, if he is running a doppleganger then, yeah, you can save him til last, but it's situational.

The terrifying 14 aura is great but, if the sorrows are in range of it, odds are sseamus is in range of all of their emotional stress. You don't test for terrifying until the model activates. First turn, all the sorrows already activated. And second turn the pandora player will just activate pandora first and one shot you then.

You NEED to lure the sorrows away from her. It's the whole point. And if the sorrows are lured off of her, she'll have to spend her first activation bringing them back, making intitiative less important, especially since you can just lure them away again.

[Joona]

Ranged spells without the ranged attack symbol can be used while in melee, but must be used on the model(s) you are in melee with. So, if she's swarmed by canine remains, good luck with that.

No where does it say that they can be used only on models you are in melee with.

FAQ says: "Ranged and melee attack spells are those spells that have a ranged () or melee () icon in their Range. These spells follow the rules for that type of attack and receive any bonuses or penalties associated with that type of attack (i.e. a model casting a spell with the icon that targets a model in soft cover would receive a on the Attack Flip). Spells without ranged or melee icons ignore any restrictions or benefits that would apply to those types of attacks (i.e. the spell above cast without the icon would not suffer the soft cover penalty) (p.62)."

Also Weird Sketch has confirmed this earlier, for example here. (But I have to admit, you had me doubting it there for a while and I wanted to be sure).

[Justin]

No where does it say that they can be used only on models you are in melee with.

FAQ says: "Ranged and melee attack spells are those spells that have a ranged () or melee () icon in their Range. These spells follow the rules for that type of attack and receive any bonuses or penalties associated with that type of attack (i.e. a model casting a spell with the icon that targets a model in soft cover would receive a on the Attack Flip). Spells without ranged or melee icons ignore any restrictions or benefits that would apply to those types of attacks (i.e. the spell above cast without the icon would not suffer the soft cover penalty) (p.62)."

Also Weird Sketch has confirmed this earlier, for example here. (But I have to admit, you had me doubting it there for a while and I wanted to be sure).

"Models may cast ranged spells against enemy models that they are in melee with." Pg. 62

This implies that if they are in melee, they may not cast it on a model they are not in melee with.

Also, in the initial post of the thread you linked, if you read the opening post's third question carefully, you'll notice the OP never mentions that there is a model in melee with the caster.

Later in the thread someone specifically asks sketch if, when a model with a ranged attack is in melee, it can target a model it is not in melee with. And this was his answer:

http://www.wyrd-games.net/forum/showpost.php?p=99416&postcount=11

Keep in mind this was before the errata and Sonnia's flame burst did not have a ranged icon.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

"Models may cast ranged spells against enemy models that they are in melee with." Pg. 62

This implies that if they are in melee, they may not cast it on a model they are not in melee with.

That implies nothing of the sort.

You're also forgetting from the errata:

Spell Basics (p.62)

Delete “ranged” in the last sentence of second paragraph.

Re-written that last sentence you're quoting is:

"Models may cast spells against enemy models that they are in melee with."

Which means that models may cast spells. Period. Including models they are in melee with. As long as those spells being cast follow the rules for such spells. (No spells in melee, etc.)

Edited April 15, 2010 by WEiRD sKeTCH