Ronin are TOO broken

[Justin]

I can't believe nobody has mentioned that it can't be upgraded to a henchman yet.

[karn987]

Not that we know what henchmen do yet ;D

Crazy monkey. Couldn't find a monkey, so heres a sheep! :sheep:

@Raintar: Please maintain a level of civility on the forums alright man? Don't insult people just because your point is not coming across. Make your arguments as clear and concise as possible and don't ramble on with walls of text. This betters your posts and the forums for everyone, so please. I could see where you were going with what you were saying, but (as I think may other people had) you didn't really convince me of your point.

Edited December 21, 2009 by karn987

[Massaen]

I understand that I'm probably the only one in this thread who's played with and against the unit based on what I've seen, but I'm letting this thread die, I'm not wasting my time telling newbies how to play.

Thats a touch of bad form right there... we are all newbies! The game has been out... what... 4 months???

As for played with or against them... I have used them on several occasions against the guild and found the 4pt deathmarshal the equal to the ronin... and the witchling stalkers are worse then the marshals!

Yes, ronin are good for their points, no doubt. But every faction has that same type of unit (Marshals/stalkers, punk zombies, silurids etc.

I can't believe you have not started on the convict gunslinger... now there is a nasty 5pt model!

[Isoulle]

Ronin are an amazing unit, definitely one of the big boys. In fact I would honestly state that I consider the Viktoria all Ronin list as one of the top tier lists (I worked with it in beta, it is very very angry). I would not call it broken though.

I do think he has a somewhat legitimate concern, it is a very powerful list. I do think it should be compared to other similar ones. Nicodem buffed punk zombies, melee expert Witchling stalkers (combat prowess ho) and other such beat stick units (Other good one is combat prowess on a bunch of finish the jobbed death marshals, VERY angry though lacking in mobility I will admit). When you take a look at them in relaiton to that they are far more comparable in power.

[TheBugKing]

I understand that I'm probably the only one in this thread who's played with and against the unit based on what I've seen, but I'm letting this thread die, I'm not wasting my time telling newbies how to play.

Some of us are NOT newbies. I've been playing this game now for better then a year. Yes it's changed a lot in that time but still, the experience is there.

Perhaps you should consider what other people are telling you. There have been several other threads about how such and such model sucks or such and such model is teh borken. All of them, so far, have turned out to be over reactions.

For what it's worth I believe I have played about 15 games with them. I know that one of the individuals that I play with regularly has played with them even more. We don't find them particularly out of line in power.

Please try to keep things civil. This community does try to hash things out and discuss the merits and drawbacks of certain units. You are perfectly welcome to your opinion that the Ronin are broken. Do expect that people will challenge you on that and expect you to back up your claims with data. The fact that people have now asked you to look at other units of similar soulstone value is a very valid argument. Try them out as well.

Feedback is actually valued here. The development team actually does listen. Comments are considered if they seem to be backed up with substantial data. Calling everyone newbs and bowing out of a discussion will not get your comments taken seriously.

[TheBugKing]

I do think he has a somewhat legitimate concern, it is a very powerful list. I do think it should be compared to other similar ones. Nicodem buffed punk zombies, melee expert Witchling stalkers (combat prowess ho) and other such beat stick units (Other good one is combat prowess on a bunch of finish the jobbed death marshals, VERY angry though lacking in mobility I will admit). When you take a look at them in relaiton to that they are far more comparable in power.

Spider Bombs? Do I hear a vote for spider bombs? Running away? Hard to hit? Who bloody cares when a spider blows up in your face! Spider Bombs FTW!!!

Or just play Leveticus. Everyone dies. Saucy!

[karn987]

*takes up a hammer, eyes BugKing* I hate spider bombs.....

Had Pandora running in circles for an entire blasted game once! Buggers killed nearly everything in the crew and she barely lived with 1 wd left. Evil little buggers ...

[nilus]

I understand that I'm probably the only one in this thread who's played with and against the unit based on what I've seen, but I'm letting this thread die, I'm not wasting my time telling newbies how to play.

Must...Resist....Snarky...Comment......

You are entitled to your opinion but I know for a fact that a lot of people here have played with and against Ronin. They are great units, well worth there 5 points(and even not a bad buy at 6). They just aren't broken when compared to other more symmetry based combat lists.

They are also very susceptible to non-direct combat lists. Pandora wipes the floor with them.

[The Happy Anarchist]

I understand that I'm probably the only one in this thread who's played with and against the unit based on what I've seen, but I'm letting this thread die, I'm not wasting my time telling newbies how to play.

I for one find it ironic that you are claiming everyone else is newbs who haven't played when you are the one who got several of the rules wrong in such a tremendous fashion that I would find it very hard to believe your opponents didn't call you on it.

Seriously, 12" move, two attacks and another 12" move? None of your opponents called you on that?

[Raintar]

I'm pretty sure I told you but to restate, I got the numbers wrong, he played it correctly and I typed it wrong, that is not the issue at all.

[Massaen]

So back on topic - what is the issue?

We have provided numerous examples of similar minions of comparable power and even players who BETA tested the sytem have weighed in.

Your entitled to believe what you like or just not post again but if you want to continue a healthy debate, continue in a civil and clear manner with examples of an actual game. Was it just a series of unlucky flips that left the nasty taste in the mouth after a ronin ripped it off? Luck can make things look worse then they are...

[Justin]

What? Is everyone around here a representative of the company? Stop telling him to mind his manners, he knows. Flame him back! Come on, get your dukes up!

...I'm bored.

[TheBugKing]

What? Is everyone around here a representative of the company? Stop telling him to mind his manners, he knows. Flame him back! Come on, get your dukes up!

...I'm bored.

Not everyone... But some of the folks are.

Seriously. A good debate is really welcome. It helps the development team immeasurably. I think the development team has made it clear that they knew there were going to be mistakes. Hell this is the first printing of the first rulebook Wyrd has put out. Of course there are going to be a few bumps in the road. Does Wyrd want to fix them? It sure looks like it!

Or you all could make Lalo's day and flame HIM! Booya!

[Justin]

Not everyone... But some of the folks are.

Seriously. A good debate is really welcome. It helps the development team immeasurably. I think the development team has made it clear that they knew there were going to be mistakes. Hell this is the first printing of the first rulebook Wyrd has put out. Of course there are going to be a few bumps in the road. Does Wyrd want to fix them? It sure looks like it!

Or you all could make Lalo's day and flame HIM! Booya!

I must say that I am very impressed with the level of response this company makes to feedback from the fans. It's a breath of fresh air after my experience with a lot of games.

And I was being sarcastic about flaming him. When I saw that post, that's all I expected to see in response. This has to be the single most well mannered forum I have ever posted on.

Granted, I'm here, so it can't be that well mannered, but everyone else seems to do a good job.

[TheBugKing]

I must say that I am very impressed with the level of response this company makes to feedback from the fans. It's a breath of fresh air after my experience with a lot of games.

And I was being sarcastic about flaming him. When I saw that post, that's all I expected to see in response. This has to be the single most well mannered forum I have ever posted on.

Granted, I'm here, so it can't be that well mannered, but everyone else seems to do a good job.

Now wait... Look who is being a goody two shoes now?

Stop with the flowers and the kissey kissey and FLAME ON!

(err... maybe not... something about that just doesn't seem right... )

[Justin]

Now wait... Look who is being a goody two shoes now?

Stop with the flowers and the kissey kissey and FLAME ON!

(err... maybe not... something about that just doesn't seem right... )

I hope scientists experiment on your larvae and replace their antennae with their genitals.

Happy?

[TheBugKing]

I hope scientists experiment on your larvae and replace their antennae with their genitals.

Happy?

Ever hear of live monkey brains? Yeah, nuf said!

<grin - should tell Nathan to start up a sump forum for all the mining run off like this series of posts. >

[Justin]

Ever hear of live monkey brains? Yeah, nuf said!

<grin - should tell Nathan to start up a sump forum for all the mining run off like this series of posts. >

Well, better than dead monkey brains.

Heh, that would be fun.

[Raintar]

I said I wanted the thread to die. But since everybody wants me to debate my position I'm going to do so.

1. Ronin can make 2 attacks from 14" away with no flips required.

2. Only the razorspine rattler can do that and it costs 7 SS and considering the Ronin gets +1 flip for both attacks, does the same damage and ignores armor it's actually BETTER from this range.

3. Once into the lines of the enemy the Ronin can make 3 attacks on a model within 8" inches away completely ignoring Disengage rules because I am pushed. Oh is that your Doppleganger? Canine Remains? Samael Hopkins? It WAS one of those units. With three attacks at +1 damage flip it won't take much effort to bring any of those essential units down.

4. You get MAYBE one action of shooting before I tie up pretty much any shooting unit in the game. I send out my Ronin who move 12" in one turn to Run Through 2" away from you and you're in combat so you can't get shots at my other Ronin that are coming. Nino Ortega, has the best range in the game and only gets one round of shooting in before I'm next to him at close combat because I move 12" per turn, that is if I don't have a unit of yours to bounce off of.

5. Some units are not ranged and have to fight Ronin with only melee attacks. Well, considering I can push through units as I please with Run Through and pick off and focus on one target I need to be killed I guess I have an advantage here too. So your guys will be going hit for hit with Ronin who will all be focusing on killing one unit at a time, good luck with that.

6. I'm also Hard to Kill and have 6 wounds which mathematically it will average 3 hits one of which has to be 3 damage to kill it. I'm also Harmless so if you get the jump on me somehow you'll be taking a Harmless check. It doesn't always work but it helps.

7. Ronin can also handle most melee units it's soulstone value in combat as well. Punk Zombies are pretty nasty, so let's pit it against a Ronin. Well first they have to get near the Ronin who will be moving back to it's 2" range every time in combat so have fun spending their first action every turn walking so they can actually hit me. I also negate your hard to wound and am dishing out 3 attacks to your one. Oh yeah, and my trigger goes off before slow to die too, sorry.

8. It could be a bad example, but in any case if I'm spending my time killing your Punk Zombies or your Death Marshalls (posted a Ronin vs. Death Marshall Analysis before in the thread) or Stalkers, that's ALL you took because my Ronin are going after everything ELSE first and depending on your master, maybe even that as well.

9. To be fair to your side of the argument though I understand in a team scenario I won't be able to do all of these things at the same time, most of the time it will be rather common that you will be charging my Ronin and I understand that.

10. Then there's a strategy that I just thought of that you can use to move even further with your Ronin. I call it the leapfrog, basically you have two Ronin back far away. You actually Run Through to make an attack on your own guy, so that you can trigger next target, push 4 extra inches, and then move your 12" for 16" total. Sure it will do 2 damage to your Ronin, but think of it in terms of Reckless Fast you do 2 wounds so that you can do 2 attacks from 16" away, so much for Nino Ortega being safe with his 16" range right?

11. There are some weaknesses I'll admit though as Ronin still have to have some downside face Killjoy, and you will have serious problems, that thing is an absolute BEAST but the same goes with pretty much any army that fields a high model count.

12. Ronin have problems with melee expert that can deal 5 damage in the first swing, namely Young Nephilim. Steamborgs and Matures I can kinda handle because I can get 2 Ronin for the price of one of those, but Youngs cost 6 and oh boy are they nasty. Hard to Kill is usually my saving grace but not against these guys.

Please if you have a one-liner about some minute detail that I've posted in this storybook, feel free to hesitate to post it. I want actual opinions from people who a) know what they're talking about and are willing to discuss why/why not this unit is broken. Discussion involves points and counter-points, and I've made my points. I actually would rather this be started as a new thread tbh...but in any case, whatever.

[karn987]

*cracks knuckles* Here we go.

1)They are 4/6 Wk/Cg and they have no ability to charge any further then normal. If your going to make that point again, please try to better explain it this time. They can go 12" with 2" reach if that is what you mean, please better format your points.

2) The Razorspine is insanely fast and it's best option with the 2nd ap is to do Constrict to max its damage. Either way, different factions, comparison is flawed.

3) It has already been established that Ronin are indeed very dangerous offensive models for their points. But there are a great deal of models that can inflict this much damage that fast. This isn't to shocking, especially because those are easy to kill support units.

4) Thats how you beat a shooting unit, you run ramshot into it's face and stick pointy things it it's body. Slurid do this much better and its a familiar tactic. I do it all the time with my froggy friends or Terror Tots, pretty much standard strategy.

5)Many units can drop this guy in 1 hit, or they just throw slow or some other debuff on him and his threat is much smaller. This is just like any other melee monster in your back lines, it sucks when it happens and it does require a lot of focus. Ever tried to kill an Executioner in your back lines? Thats hard, freaking slow to die and love the job, fat wolverine *grumbles*.

6) Hard to Kill is what lets you sruvive the distance to the enemy and make you hang around an annoying amount of time. Otherwise, its rather easy to deal with, (You will evaporate in Pandora's web of effects for example). Also Harmless, while cool, is easy to deal with if you have a 6 or 7 in your hand, since thats all most models need to pass the check. You need to give them a negative flip on wp to make harmless a PITA.

7) Um, Punk Zombies are from a different faction and have different META values in the game. But if you insist, Self-Mutilation and Slice and Dice get around Hard to Kill. But I'm not going to continue with this since yet again, comparing models cross faction and in a vacume does not work.

8) Huh? If you mean you will play the unit to its strategic purpose, um, good job? Thats what I would honestly expect.

9) Even in a single player game, hyper aggressive units like Ronin tend to be drawn into traps. The best players get caught in these, they are designed for that purpose. Bait and switch to remove a PITA model, was it worth it? Ask your opponent.

10) True you can do this to move even faster, but I will take that little damage on your Ronin to do that. It moves them into the realm of easy to kill even with their Hard to Kill ability. Plus it also burns your hard for that turn trying to mitigate the damage and you never know, you could flip some high damage. Either way, go right ahead and good thinking.

11) Ronin, like EVERY model in this game, can be rather easy to kill if you try hard enough. As it has already been said a few times, special abilities is what hoses these guys. If you for example, get caught in Pandora's web of effects, these guys melt. Levy will just whipe them out without a thought. Teddy will happily make them flee then charge and eat their face. The Ortegas will put more holes in their head then they will have head. The point is, they are nothing to special when it comes to special effects =D.

12) Why send a melee guy to do the job of a specialist or a ranged guy honestly? You keep comparing things that are close to their same value going against them when it is more then likely, something much more powerful will go hunting them. I'd send my master to deal with them personally, I'd rather not risk my units when my 1 master can kill 2+ of them without having to try to hard.

I see your points that they are a dangerous unit but you are basically freaking out about how mean they are in game theory. In practice, they aren't bad but eh, they are just another dangerous unit that you make sure dies, nothing to special. I think you need to play more games of Malifaux and against a wider variety of units to.

So to summarize, they are a dangerous unit. No one is disputing this, but I don't think they are THAT dangerous. They are not that hard to deal with when actually playing the game because it just takes a little power to wipe them out (like everything else). Their threat and damage output is rather nice, but there are other things that meet and beat this level of threat range/damage. They are only 6 wd's with average stats across the board, when it comes to someone actually attacking them, they are glass cannons in the end. Hard to Kill gives them 1 trick to live, and all that takes is 1 more attack to finish them off.

Sure, they are a maneuverable precision strike unit which is great! I love those kinds of things, and they do it well. But they get in their, hit their target, and get out if they can. I don't see whats broken about that at all.

So please, don't insult people here, don't insult the company, and please don't insult the community. If you want to debate on a topic, do it rationally without ranting on the post and trying to debase the people you are speaking with.

Edited December 23, 2009 by karn987

[nilus]

4. You get MAYBE one action of shooting before I tie up pretty much any shooting unit in the game. I send out my Ronin who move 12" in one turn to Run Through 2" away from you and you're in combat so you can't get shots at my other Ronin that are coming. Nino Ortega, has the best range in the game and only gets one round of shooting in before I'm next to him at close combat because I move 12" per turn, that is if I don't have a unit of yours to bounce off of.

Karn did a good job point for point but I will add this

Nino only needs 1 turn to kill the Ronin. In my sights gives me a 9 to hit. Trigger happy if I have a Mask(and chances are I will) means I am hitting you three times before you get into melee.

Also your theories don't take into account block armies. Sure you move 14 and attack twice, but then the most you move away is 4"(so 6" total with reach). If I am running a block then I have several models in charge range of the Ronin to take him out.

Sure he has a great abilities to run him into the middle of your enemy but that basically assures he will die that turn(even with Hard to Kill), so it turns him into a 5 SS rocket. You can do the same thing with 2 SS canine remains juiced up by a nurse.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

I said I wanted the thread to die. But since everybody wants me to debate my position I'm going to do so.

When you call people derogatory terms, it's hard to have a civil debate with anyone when you choose to lower the bar to that level.

1. Ronin can make 2 attacks from 14" away with no flips required.

Where and how? A Ronin can Run Through twice making one attack at 8" (6" Cg & 2" Rg) and then a second @ 8". And the Ronin STILL needs to succeed in its Attack Flips there.

2. Only the razorspine rattler can do that and it costs 7 SS and considering the Ronin gets +1 flip for both attacks, does the same damage and ignores armor it's actually BETTER from this range.

The Ronin only receives on Dg flips not on its attack flips with its Daisho Strikes.

3. Once into the lines of the enemy the Ronin can make 3 attacks on a model within 8" inches away completely ignoring Disengage rules because I am pushed. Oh is that your Doppleganger? Canine Remains? Samael Hopkins? It WAS one of those units. With three attacks at +1 damage flip it won't take much effort to bring any of those essential units down.

It sure will. If you have the right cards and your opponent doesn't. AND if your opponent just leaves everything out in the open on the table. Unless of course, you don't use terrain where you play...

4. You get MAYBE one action of shooting before I tie up pretty much any shooting unit in the game. I send out my Ronin who move 12" in one turn to Run Through 2" away from you and you're in combat so you can't get shots at my other Ronin that are coming. Nino Ortega, has the best range in the game and only gets one round of shooting in before I'm next to him at close combat because I move 12" per turn, that is if I don't have a unit of yours to bounce off of.

Again, no terrain on the table? Even when you're pushing all over the table, Ronin models don't ignore severe terrain.

5. Some units are not ranged and have to fight Ronin with only melee attacks. Well, considering I can push through units as I please with Run Through and pick off and focus on one target I need to be killed I guess I have an advantage here too. So your guys will be going hit for hit with Ronin who will all be focusing on killing one unit at a time, good luck with that.

Again, this is all dependant upon whether or not you hit your attack target. You're still only activating one model at a time. And if you kill one of my models (happens), then that lone Ronin that's all alone is going to get swamped.

6. I'm also Hard to Kill and have 6 wounds which mathematically it will average 3 hits one of which has to be 3 damage to kill it. I'm also Harmless so if you get the jump on me somehow you'll be taking a Harmless check. It doesn't always work but it helps.

And that's only on average. If I want a Ronin dead, it gets dead. And I wouldn't rely on Harmless if I were you. Passing the Harmless check is pretty easy for one. And as soon as you make an attack, it's not Harmless anymore.

Df 5 is pretty average. If I want to hit a Ronin, it's not that difficult.

7. Ronin can also handle most melee units it's soulstone value in combat as well. Punk Zombies are pretty nasty, so let's pit it against a Ronin. Well first they have to get near the Ronin who will be moving back to it's 2" range every time in combat so have fun spending their first action every turn walking so they can actually hit me. I also negate your hard to wound and am dishing out 3 attacks to your one. Oh yeah, and my trigger goes off before slow to die too, sorry.

Apology accepted. You seem to keep having these wide open spaces that your Encounters are in. If you're running a Ronin out on its own, unsupported it will get cut down to size. Easily. And not just by a Punk Zombie.

8. It could be a bad example, but in any case if I'm spending my time killing your Punk Zombies or your Death Marshalls (posted a Ronin vs. Death Marshall Analysis before in the thread) or Stalkers, that's ALL you took because my Ronin are going after everything ELSE first and depending on your master, maybe even that as well.

Lilith accepts your challenge. As well as Perdita, Pandora, Lady Justice, etc. Put your money where your mouth is.

9. To be fair to your side of the argument though I understand in a team scenario I won't be able to do all of these things at the same time, most of the time it will be rather common that you will be charging my Ronin and I understand that.

You don't appear to understand that. You keep making wld assumptions that players:

a.) won't see the Ronin coming.

b.) won't use the terrain to their advantage whenever they can.

c.) won't use their Fate Hand. Ever.

10. Then there's a strategy that I just thought of that you can use to move even further with your Ronin. I call it the leapfrog, basically you have two Ronin back far away. You actually Run Through to make an attack on your own guy, so that you can trigger next target, push 4 extra inches, and then move your 12" for 16" total. Sure it will do 2 damage to your Ronin, but think of it in terms of Reckless Fast you do 2 wounds so that you can do 2 attacks from 16" away, so much for Nino Ortega being safe with his 16" range right?

And that would put you at possible cards down from your Fate Hand. Not only would you possibly have to cheat the Dg down (as the trigger is after dealing damage to the Defender) you could also have to cheat in order to even hit.

So, go ahead and soften up your force for me. I'll wait until you're done and mop up the rest.

11. There are some weaknesses I'll admit though as Ronin still have to have some downside face Killjoy, and you will have serious problems, that thing is an absolute BEAST but the same goes with pretty much any army that fields a high model count.

So then you're saying that they aren't as BROKEN as you originally stated?

I am curious about your play area, is this just some local meta thing that you're spewing all over us? Because I've faced Ronin many MANY times and havent had issue with them. Strong model? Sure thing, well worth it's Soulstone cost.

12. Ronin have problems with melee expert that can deal 5 damage in the first swing, namely Young Nephilim. Steamborgs and Matures I can kinda handle because I can get 2 Ronin for the price of one of those, but Youngs cost 6 and oh boy are they nasty. Hard to Kill is usually my saving grace but not against these guys.

Or 3 Dg in one swing. Hit once for three, hit a second time for three (knocked down to two due to Hard to Kill), then dead.

Please if you have a one-liner about some minute detail that I've posted in this storybook, feel free to hesitate to post it. I want actual opinions from people who a) know what they're talking about and are willing to discuss why/why not this unit is broken. Discussion involves points and counter-points, and I've made my points. I actually would rather this be started as a new thread tbh...but in any case, whatever.

Well, I believe I know what I'm talking about, but this is the internet. I could just be a ghost in the machine for all anyone knows.

You've made your points and your flames. I've responded to each of them. Take that as you will.

Here's hoping you show up to various Organized Play events at conventions with players from all over the country (or world) and prove us all wrong. To coin the phrase, "proof's in the pudding" comes to mind here.

[The Happy Anarchist]

I think you are underestimating how good guns are when wielded by the faction that uses guns.

Most of them other than the dirt cheap ones do minimums of 3/4/5+. With a little cheating, many Guild guns can two shot the Ronin.

Comparing cross faction is weird, but keep in mind that if you charge a Punk Zombie from the max distance, your actually not particularly likely to kill them. If they are running Nicodem then you are actually quite unlikely to kill them, as they will be Def 7. Then they slice and dice if cards allow, or walk up and chop once and the other punk zombie/canine remains/flesh construct wanders up and finishes the job. Then you charge more Ronins and they charge more zombies. If you play this game against the Resurrectionists you will lose the game. Every time.

The Punk Zombie's advantage in the overall game that warrant the higher cost are 2 higher combat value, a trigger that can cause more damage, paired Katana, which mean it will hit and flurry which is a slightly less useful melee expert but can come in handy. Not to mention being hard to wound and having a couple of good spells for just putting damage on a lot of targets.

So if you want to pick a model it is better than, the Punk Zombie is not it.

[Raintar]

Sweet alot of responses... going @ Weirds post cuz he's an officer or whatever that thing is...

Where and how? A Ronin can Run Through twice making one attack at 8" (6" Cg & 2" Rg) and then a second @ 8". And the Ronin STILL needs to succeed in its Attack Flips there.

1. You move your Cg in Run Through for one action, unless it was errataed which I don't think it was. This is how you are doing all of these things. You are NEVER using your standard walk actions because with Run Through you are pushed and you move your Cg which is 6", so don't even waste your time walking. So Run Through twice is 12" for 2 actions making your effective range 14". Pushes ignore terrain because they don't count as moving, yeah that'll come into play later.

2.

The Ronin only receives on Dg flips not on its attack flips with its Daisho Strikes.

Yes I know, you misread, I was under the assumption that the Rattler was charging thus the first attack for +1 to damage flip and nothing for the second while the Rattler gets both.

3.

It sure will. If you have the right cards and your opponent doesn't. AND if your opponent just leaves everything out in the open on the table. Unless of course, you don't use terrain where you play...

I ignore terrain, if I have it, even better since it gives me cover and I suffer no negatives from it. But the idea is, with 2 average hands working against each other I can kill these units since many of them are very strong units and suffer defensively which is a weakness I exploit. Those units I listed have sub-par defenses with no defense triggers which means all I have to do is aim for them first with my best hand and I can most likely kill that unit because I'll blow my entire hand to do so.

4.

Again, no terrain on the table? Even when you're pushing all over the table, Ronin models don't ignore severe terrain.

Again yes, I do.

5.

Again, this is all dependant upon whether or not you hit your attack target. You're still only activating one model at a time. And if you kill one of my models (happens), then that lone Ronin that's all alone is going to get swamped.

You would think that, but no, as I run through with my second attack I can push to another position that is alot better for my health, and considering I will have killed with next target I will be moving 10". Good luck trying to keep up with me unless you have a shooting list, then I'll stick around so you can shoot me up.

And that's only on average. If I want a Ronin dead, it gets dead. And I wouldn't rely on Harmless if I were you. Passing the Harmless check is pretty easy for one. And as soon as you make an attack, it's not Harmless anymore.

Df 5 is pretty average. If I want to hit a Ronin, it's not that difficult.

6. You are correct. But how many hits on one are you getting, odds say if you're melee I'm running Through backwards, and if you're range I'm sticking it close. Sure I'll be taking a charge if you're melee but no unit in the game can kill me in one hit, so you better have melee expert.

Apology accepted. You seem to keep having these wide open spaces that your Encounters are in. If you're running a Ronin out on its own, unsupported it will get cut down to size. Easily. And not just by a Punk Zombie.

7. Life if easy and great when you ignore half the rules of the rulebook, move 12" and nothing can do anything about it. But the thing is that my Ronin WILL be supported... by other Ronin, so all I have is a swarm of units that just pick off one unit at a time and then move to tie up different units or move away to a unit that's already activated.

Lilith accepts your challenge. As well as Perdita, Pandora, Lady Justice, etc. Put your money where your mouth is.

8. Disclaimer......DEPENDING ON THE MASTER. Rasuptina? Ramos? Levy? Pandora? (Granted I'm on drooling on myself) These are rather easy to kill unless they have soulstones in the bank. But that's just a matter of getting them down. No minion 5 points is meant to fight masters like that, except for maybe Ice Gamin...

And that would put you at possible cards down from your Fate Hand. Not only would you possibly have to cheat the Dg down (as the trigger is after dealing damage to the Defender) you could also have to cheat in order to even hit.

So, go ahead and soften up your force for me. I'll wait until you're done and mop up the rest.

9. Damn two of my low cards gone if I'm incredibly unlucky to move 16" and attack twice from 2" range. I won't take it every time but I'll definitely take it. I don't see how you don't think that's devastating....

You don't appear to understand that. You keep making wld assumptions that players:

a.) won't see the Ronin coming.

b.) won't use the terrain to their advantage whenever they can.

c.) won't use their Fate Hand. Ever.

10. Sure you can see it coming it doesn;t matter though, I'm faster then you BY ALOT. What else moves 12" in one turn? Not many units do but none of those hit as hard and Ronin. Terrain? Hah I ignore that. And I have a Fate hand too btw...

So then you're saying that they aren't as BROKEN as you originally stated?

I am curious about your play area, is this just some local meta thing that you're spewing all over us? Because I've faced Ronin many MANY times and havent had issue with them. Strong model? Sure thing, well worth it's Soulstone cost.

Maybe I overemphasized in the title that they are too broken. But they are IMO probably one of the top tier units.

Or 3 Dg in one swing. Hit once for three, hit a second time for three (knocked down to two due to Hard to Kill), then dead.

12. Yes thus THREE hits, one model can't do that. The Young can, thus I stated him as a weakness.

Well, I believe I know what I'm talking about, but this is the internet. I could just be a ghost in the machine for all anyone knows.

You've made your points and your flames. I've responded to each of them. Take that as you will.

Here's hoping you show up to various Organized Play events at conventions with players from all over the country (or world) and prove us all wrong. To coin the phrase, "proof's in the pudding" comes to mind here.

Ha I'm a gamer, I enjoy playing the game but probably not enough to play it competitively it would seem very Warmachine-esque with rules disputes and questions, too much so for me to play competitively. It's close to the same reason I won't play Blood Bowl competitively, because when you do it takes fun out of the game, where nobody uses anything original and you see that same units over and over again. One of which will definitely be the Ronin. The others I'm not too sure but I have a new list that I'm testing called the Vulture Drop that's proving to be pretty effective as well.

Edited December 23, 2009 by Raintar

[karn987]

Many models are as quick as the Ronin, quite a few can move just as fast or threat as much distance.

On your #2, never assume someone is going to think the way you do. Spell it all out to be sure there is no confusion. This also goes for your #1, if you had just broken it down, no one would have be confused.

I'm not sure why you think Raspy, Ramos, Levy, and Pandora are easy to kill either, unless your not playing the game correctly. Those can be some of the hardest to kill masters hands down, Levy being actually keeping him down. I'm not going to bother debating how and why, this isn't the place for that.

The way you reference the Ronin's success suggest you are playing from your hand on most of the flips they make. Since you already said you swarm with them, you will very quickly be out of any useful cards. This is a problem with any swarm style of fighting and all the opponent has to do is push you here or there and your burning your hand faster then your Ronin can move.

I'm rather sure that when you push, you suffer terrain effects. Yes the push entry says you are not considered to be moving, but I think this is for dealing with effects that react to your movement along the lines of free strikes, linked models following you, etc. NOT in reference to terrain.

The reason Run Through says push, seems to be so you don't get nailed by free strikes and other effects that react to movement. Not so you can walk through walls.

Push very clearly states that you MOVE the model. p. 47 "When a game effect pushes a model, move the distance indicated by the effect causing the push." Yes it also states your not considered moving, but I already explained my view on that. Also yes this could refer to the physical action of moving the model or the game term, not my call to make. I can't recall if Marshals have dealt with it before, but it could probably use being addressed here again.

Edited December 23, 2009 by karn987