The Mortificator Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 The first few games I played, I hadn't read the errata on the forums, but now that I have, I've gotten a few more games over with and am a bit perplexed by the change to Jokers. With only the Black Joker taking priority in flips, I've found that the Red Joker only works maybe once or twice in a single game assuming you haven't drawn it into your hand. Meanwhile, the Black Joker comes up 5+ times. This is rather frustrating to me and sort of ruins the point of the Red Joker, as I always saw the Jokers representing those rare chances where fate, be it bad or good, completely flips around on you. It really adds some excitement to seeing a Hard to Wound model soaking severe+ damage, but it's rare enough it has never unbalanced the games I played. The flip-side would of course being someone like a charging Lady Justice with Vengeance doing zero damage. I understand if the Black Joker takes priority over the Red in cases of both being flipped at the same time, but having the Red Joker being outed by even a single negative flip seems to make it... I guess lackluster is a good way to put it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WEiRD sKeTCH Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 Then try to hit with better than a 5 difference. Seriously, I believe that was the intent from the beginning. It was a little confusing the way it's worded in the book, that's what brought about the change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goblyn13 Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 Nah in order to overcome Hard to wound he needs to hit with better than a difference of 11. ( for the diff cancels for the HtW) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quozl Posted November 6, 2009 Report Share Posted November 6, 2009 I like that they clarified this one. It seemed silly to me that the more negatives you get to hit, the more likely you are to get a red joker and almost auto-hit. Or the worse your actual hit, the more likely you are to get the mega-damage that a red-joker involves. I didn't like that, and thought it was pointlessly random. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paperbag4 Posted November 6, 2009 Report Share Posted November 6, 2009 We've always played where the Red Joker was ignored on a negative flip, but flipping the Black Joker on a double-positive damage flip and getting nothing does show that the two cards aren't balanced around each other. Least playing 'Tina I got to draw two more cards, shame they weren't good enough to replace setting up the double positive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mortificator Posted November 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 Hard to Wound was just the example I used to generate a negative flip. It could just as easily apply to shooting through cover or casting spells in a disruption effect like the Witchlings'. It seemed silly to me that the more negatives you get to hit, the more likely you are to get a red joker and almost auto-hit. Or the worse your actual hit, the more likely you are to get the mega-damage that a red-joker involves. It can be frustrating to see an opponent flip a Red Joker with a lot of negatives, but it's equally as bad when you have several positives and the Black Joker shows up to ruin that. With my above example of Lady Justice charging while having Vengeance cast, assuming she hits with at least a 6 combat total, is getting 3 positive flips on damage, which means more chances to pull the Black Joker, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 I see it like this There should never be a chance were a negative flip gives you a better chance of hitting. Being more incompetent should not have a possible reward. On the other hand, not matter how good of a shot you are there should always be chance of failure. I think this is what the black joker accomplishes. Like any game, in the company of friends you are allowed to house rule whatever you choose but personally I am fine with the official answer. It penalizes both players equally so although it might be frustrating at the moment you pull that black joker. Over the course of the game it balances out between the two players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fool Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 Over the course of the game it balances out between the two players. I disagree, if it does happen, the chance of it happening to both players is unlikely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paradox Posted November 8, 2009 Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 I think the ability to hold the black joker in your control hand is a balancing factor. It CAN weaken your control hand, but the positive effect it has in that you know you will never flip it is worth it. I had a game today where Justice got off a nasty riposte with a +3 damage flip on the steamborg. I flipped a 12, 11 black joker. DOH! It does suck to flip it, but I think it goes with the idea of "Bad things happen." In this game I never drew up the black joker into my hand, but any time I do, I always hold it through the game, just so i know a situation like the above never happens. Incidentally, that flip cost me the game. It left steamborg alive, who then decapitated Justice. After that, I had only 3 marshals left, which wasn't enough. I do like the mechanic of it, but it does indeed hurt when it hits you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyBones Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 I have to agree with the original post. I like the risk of flipping a black joker and having it fail regardless of the numbers but also think the red should do the exact opposite. If you are flipping at negative fate the red joker should trump the "lowest" rule and be able to be used. Just my two cents. In the end, it's not something that has come up that often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AoM Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 (edited) I see it like this There should never be a chance were a negative flip gives you a better chance of hitting. Being more incompetent should not have a possible reward. On the other hand, not matter how good of a shot you are there should always be chance of failure. I think this is what the black joker accomplishes.If Fate is turning its back on you, you're not going to get the better of the possible outcomes. It makes perfect sense for the fluff. You flip the Weak damage and the Red Joker when Fate wasn't on your side, well, that's just Fate's little way of screwing with you. Black joker trumps everything because that's Fate's way of pissing in your Cheerios in the morning after you've already woken up with a killer hangover. Life sucks, wear a helmet. I have to agree with the original post. I like the risk of flipping a black joker and having it fail regardless of the numbers but also think the red should do the exact opposite. If you are flipping at negative fate the red joker should trump the "lowest" rule and be able to be used. Just my two cents. In the end, it's not something that has come up that often.Red Joker is amazing, and the ultimate best you can do, but it is not Fate telling you that you can do no wrong. It's merely the superb combination of skill and luck giving you that little extra boost. Black Joker, as I said above, is Fate completely and utterly abandoning you. The Black Joker can never be cheated, the red can be (for whatever reason you might somehow have). That rule alone give the Black Joker the power to trump any other card in the game. AFAIK, this was the original intent all along. Edited November 10, 2009 by AoM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrborges Posted November 13, 2009 Report Share Posted November 13, 2009 The way I see all this is... No matter how bad of an aim you may have, you could get lucky. Shooting poorly sometimes pays off...you might be aiming for the head, but a shot to the heart or the nuts...it's all good. Equally, if you've got the best aim and you're getting head shots, sometimes you only get grazes and flesh wounds. Just like "in real life," this happens in the game. You could get 3 positive twists, but they could ALL be Weak! Or you could get three negative twists, and they could ALL be Severe. It could happen. As for the Jokers specifically, I think if you've going to have two 'trump' cards, they should always be trump cards, not just when you're in a positive twist. Yes, I think the Black Joker should trump all, even the Red Joker. But I think the Red Joker should still "be the man" under all other circumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WEiRD sKeTCH Posted November 13, 2009 Report Share Posted November 13, 2009 Bad Things Happen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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