Tactica: Marcus

[goblyn13]

Yes

[hannibal]

I thought so, but worth double checking. Thanks!

[Kealios]

@hannibal: Yea. Its why they are very situational, but still useful in the right circumstances. Maybe I'll try them on you tonight

@DB: See the Neverborn thread HERE where I raise some discussions on the Silurid. Maybe I'll have to give them a shot.

Yesterday in my 30SS game, I ran:

Marcus

Myranda (7)

Rattler (7)

Cerberus (8)

Moleman (3)

Jackelope (1)

+4 SS = 8 SS cache

Tonight I might drop the Rattler and go with 1x December Acolyte (6) and a Hoarcat Pride or Silurid (5). I really want to try out the Waldgeist as well, since I think advancing your own cover would rock. If I go with the HP, I can get the Voracious combo off with Myranda, but if I go with the Catfishman, I'd need to be concerned with water, or having Myranda grow some gills. Hmm...

[TheBugKing]

The issue with that idea is that Myranda is still Myranda. Not the beast she transforms into. It's what allows you to have "3" Sabertooth's on the table. If her name actually changed then the rare 2 would kick in and prevent the action.

Sadly Myranda will not make Silurids happy nor HPs hungry for bigger game.

Now if transform had a line that stated the "new" model also got the traits and name of the transformation (err template?) that would work.

[Dv8guy]

But other hp can make Myranda more hungry.

[TheBugKing]

But other hp can make Myranda more hungry.

This is very true.

[hannibal]

So I've been looking at the Marcus box set, after playing a couple of games against Kealios. My thoughts:

Marcus: I'm convinced the guy is all about getting up in people's faces. He just doesn't strike me as a 'sit back and support' master. The big thing with him is that even with Instinctual, he just has too many good zero action combos, so you have to work out the most synergistic zero actions.

Wild Heart, for me, is really the base zero action. It seems like something you'd just take every time when he's getting bashy. I really think it's worth it to drop a tome from your hand to get three, usually Bear, Eagle, & Fox (BEF from now on).

Wild Heart + Stare Down: I see this as a good combo for when you're not going to kill what you're attacking, such as during a charge. You cast Wild Heart, then charge the enemy and be sure you hit (dropping cards/soulstones if necessary). Then you trigger Primal Reaction making the guy a beast. Then you use staredown, so that the guy's counter attacks aren't great. You're essentially relying on Fox to help you survive until the moleman can run up behind you. Also, the state down lets any guys who follow up attack the enemy as well.

Wild Heart + Pack Leader: all about the Alpha Strike. You do the same BEF for Wild Heart but now you've got some other beast (except the rattler) coming along for the fight.

The permutations for this one are all over the place: You can go for the one-round kill, in which case the beast in question charges the same thing as Marcus does. Or you can go for swamp-the-lines, where each model targets a different enemy. Or you can go the defense route and use the Cerberus for Roar. A coupe of roars and you should thin out the counter attack to prevent/reduce the inevitable counter charge. Or you use the Waldgeist to move around some forest, maybe between Marcs & the enemy. Can't see Marcus, can't hurt'em.

Wild Heart + Blinding Strike/Feline Speed: This is when Marcus is simply on his own, and can't use companion. Essentially, you're burning that second zero action for a free charge. No you can't use staredown, but instead you make 3 attacks. Basically this is when you just want to kill the enemy right frakkin now. Feline speed is basically the same idea, except its for when Marcus is already in melee.

Feral + Alpha + Stare Down: I'll be honest, I think this one is very situational. You have to succeed at a lot of spells and your opponent has to fail a lot of resists. If he succeeds at any of them, this combo comes to a screeching halt. I'd only use this one if I had lots of 10+s in my hand and was willing to burn 2-3 soulstones to drive up the casting total for those resists. So it's really a once per game thing.

But if it works, you can probably kill an enemy model. If a model is already in melee range of a friendly model, and the model has melee master, that's 3 free swings. Plus the target model is out of commission for the turn. When you're all done, you drop Stare Down on the target model so you can later follow up with another model of your own to kill him.

Feral + Alpha + Pack Leader: so this is basically the above, except that you then activate a beast of your own. See the above with Wild Heart + Pack Leader for the general idea. But really, this can be devastating because, if things go well you kill on model, the Alpha'd model is out for the turn, and then you can charge a third model with one of your guys. If things go poorly, and the Alpha'd guy doesn't kill his buddy, your beast charges in to finish the job.

Feral + Staredown + Primal Flame: this is one of the few support combos I see. You use it against a model in melee or about to attack one of your beasts. You heal a beasty up with your two actions and then make it so one enemy model has fumbilitis.

That's certainly not all the combos, and this could go on forever if I described every single one. Wild Heart (Hare) + Howl + Pack Leader in combo with the Cerberus's roar comes to mind. As does Wild Heart (Hare) + Primal Flame + Pack Leader lets you hop forward, heal a beast, then activate him. Or conversely heal-walk away-activate beast.

So okay, this got way long. I'll post some thoughts on Miranda in another post later.

[Kealios]

OMG I hadnt even thought of Feral + Staredown + Alpha. That would have made taking over Bishop a little easier...because once you get the Feral taken care of (too bad Marcus cant Howl as well...BUT Myranda can...), then the opponent wont be able to cheat against your Alpha...

Marcus is a lot of work, I think. If his tricks succeed, good times. If not, well, ouch.

[hannibal]

OMG I hadnt even thought of Feral + Staredown + Alpha. That would have made taking over Bishop a little easier...because once you get the Feral taken care of (too bad Marcus cant Howl as well...BUT Myranda can...), then the opponent wont be able to cheat against your Alpha...

The only thing is that if you do stare down before alpha, then the attacks by the guy you just took over will be at -1 flip. Kinda seems to defeat the point. I mean, if you're taking over Hans who's gonna do a concentrated strike anyway, sure.

Marcus is a lot of work, I think. If his tricks succeed, good times. If not, well, ouch.

Actually, the Wild Heart (BEF) + Pack Leader is a straight up "knock'em upside the head" combo right up their with Lilith and the other bruisers.

[Kealios]

Yea but he has to be standing next to the opponent for it to work, and as proven last night, :malitomes dont grow on trees.

Neither do :malimasks for the Cerberus either. 15% success rate on Leap versus Silurid's 60%? :growl:

[hannibal]

Myranda: So the thing about Myranda is that I think she shoud have a disclaimer next to her Shapechange spell that says "Use with Caution." I've seen her action transforming early into both the Ceberus and the Rattler and I just don't think its a good idea. I mean, she has Melee expert, beast companion, furious casting, and the poisonous trigger. Frankly, unless I needed another rattler/cerberus/waldgeist right then and there I'd just keep her as is.

I think Myranda is a swiss army knife. She's a support caster who can perform the ultimate support: being decent at melee on top of it. Really, I think the secret to her success is companion, because it lets her play the support role and then have the beasty go out there and do some damage. Let's start with the obvious combo:

Beast Companion + Furious Casting: Let's say you have a beast who's taken a beating. Three primal flames and our battered beasty is now Cap'n Roid Rage, getting to attack right mutha-frakkin' now! Almost a perfect combo with the Sabertooth, who can lose his extra attacks if he drops to 4 wounds or less. The great thing about this is you can cast it in melee to help out a beast and then attack with your free melee expert attack.

But who says its got to be healing? How about casting roar a couple of times (because somebody has got to fail, right?) and then shapeshift into a cerberus for two more free attacks?

And remember, Marcus is a beast (and so is Myranda). So that's some synergy with Marcus casting howl and then Miranda roaring. Where it really gets ugly is if Marcus activates first, companions with Myranda, then does his thing. Somewhere in there he howls. Myranda then goes, roaring as much as is necessary (because that Cerberus is right by, right?). Then she finishes with beast companion and the Cerberus pounces on anyone who's fleeing because of the minus flips they have.

Albeit a little more situational, and assuming everything goes right, if Myranda is in base contact with an enemy she can assume the rattler shape after companioning with the Cerberus (so two roars, companion, a melee strike, and then transforming to rattler). Now she's terrifying, for when the enemy activates. The Cerberus does his attacks, taking Smell Fear as his zero action, thus netting a free charge after he's activated.

Granted, highly situational, but goes to show what she can do.

Right, so let's say she's got to get into melee. I don't think this is the best use of her abilities, but she's really good at it actually. With clawshape she can do some decent damage and then she's got three attacks (if in melee) or a charge and extra attack (if she nots in melee). And somewhere in there is poisonous for that forget-me-not damage.

Where I think 'Thumping Myrand' comes into play is when she's being companioned. Say if Marcus uses Pack Leader to companion with her and he takes the Wild Heart (BEF) spells. Now you have two pretty thumpy models able to activate right frakkin' now and put a hurt on someone. I can't say I'd build a start-of-game strategy around this, but in the second half of the game when people are whittled down and its Marcus & Myranda? Well, that's a combo that might off a model and take the game.

What makes her so useful, I think is that if you treat her like support that can fight, you'll also have access to beast spells thanks to animal instincts. So if Myranda is within 6" of a rattler and in melee against someone, she casts constrict. Does a little damage and also slows the enemy.

But really, like I said, I think its all about primal flame and beast companion. The melee ability is just the I'm-not-some-broken-down-old-man-Ramos-who-you-can-negate-by-charging-punk part.

[Kealios]

Beast Companion is easy to see. My biggest complaint with Marcus and Myranda is the difficulty of their most useful spells:

Marcus needs 8+ :malimasks for Alpha

Primal Flame needs 7+ :malirams for Marcus, 10+ :malirams for the Jackelope and 8+ :malirams for Myranda.

Myranda needs 9+ :malitomes for Shapeshift.

The reason I was shapeshifting so early in the games was because I got a favorable draw and wanted to make sure I didnt lose the Tomes I needed for the spell. I also was hoarding my Rams because I knew I'd need those heals...and when it mattered, I healed 1 point off the Rattler. Useless. Seriously.

Even the damn cat needs a 7+ :malimasks to Leap.

This is why I'm going back to Neverborn. At least they have the suits they need in their stats

[hannibal]

Beast Companion is easy to see. My biggest complaint with Marcus and Myranda is the difficulty of their most useful spells:

Marcus needs 8+ :malimasks for Alpha

Primal Flame needs 7+ :malirams for Marcus, 10+ :malirams for the Jackelope and 8+ :malirams for Myranda.

Myranda needs 9+ :malitomes for Shapeshift.

Well, you've just quoted spells that, with exception to primal flame, I wouldn't rely on. Even primal flame is a "cast it a bunch of times with miranda" shotgun approach. I dunno I'd have Marcus do it unless he had nothing else to do.

But on the bashy spells for Marcus, he can get those easily. Same with Myranda. The shapechange and Alpha really strike me as 'use once per game' kind of spells. Usually when you have the cheat card in hand, and expect to fail on the flip.

The reason I was shapeshifting so early in the games was because I got a favorable draw and wanted to make sure I didnt lose the Tomes I needed for the spell.

Well, in fairness, the reason I've cooled to the idea is because you've done it and it hasn't worked. Not because of any great tactical acumen on my part. :thumb:

I also was hoarding my Rams because I knew I'd need those heals...and when it mattered, I healed 1 point off the Rattler. Useless. Seriously.

Yeah, I think heals are not the be-all and end-all of spells. That's why I think casting like 3 of them at once. 3 points is nothing to laugh at. And you should get some moderates heals . . .

Even the damn cat needs a 7+ :malimasks to Leap.

Well, when I get to the two critters I'll say more, but for now: don't expect to cast them unless you have the card in hand. That's my thinking.

[TheBugKing]

This is actually very interesting. You guys are starting to see how things will stack up.

As for the difficulty of casting I almost always refrain from trusting the flip off the deck to cast something. It's just too unreliable and costs you an AP if you fail. The more difficult spells are reserved for when I have whats needed in the fate hand. Knowing you can do something is a hell of a lot better then hoping. Once in a while you get into a situation where you have to flip and hope.

That being said the intent was that you could get lucky once in a while but you usually only cast those spells when you had the control hand to make it happen.

[Kealios]

TBK, that makes perfect sense. There have been a few times where I attempted to cast a spell, hoping for the flip, and it has come through, but mostly I only try it (assuming I dont have the cheat card in my hand) because a) I NEED IT NOW, or Ive got no other option to try, so why not

As for Myranda, her not being able to do ANY zero-cost action while shifted SUCKS. I'm actually close to writing her out of my list.

[Fool]

Just remember that the mole armor is not that great when in combat. Marcus can only shift the damage off from a CHARGE or RANGED attacks. Spells, melee attacks, and others he can not shift off.

[hannibal]

Well, spells that are ranged attacks he could divert the damage. For example, Ramos's Electrical Fire.

[goblyn13]

Well, spells that are ranged attacks he could divert the damage. For example, Ramos's Electrical Fire.

Remember that its only a ranged attack if it has the :maliranged in the range part or states that its ranged, Pandora's Self-:oathing for example is not a ranged attack, but Ramos' Electrical fire is

[McNs]

My take on the Chimera box - there's a lot of situationally useful abilities that have suit requirements. Given the diversity of the requirements (Masks, Tomes, and Rams mainly... crows if you want poison in some situations), there's a good chance you can do something with your high cards. Granted, this may not be exactly what you wanted to do - but you're still bound to get one of the 3 big suits mentioned above in a turn.

One thing to consider when comboing - what's the Jackelope going to change about this? My two cents - having an extra Feral is going to change people's list builds. Knowing that Joss can be a beast, basically on tap, makes him a bit more attractive to a Marcus player (and frees up some APs for Marcus). Granted, it doesn't much change the paradigm of his list - ganging up on something to kill it via Companion and soaking damage with Molemen.

Marcus, to my mind, has a big advantage in being able to get where he needs to go in terms of terrain. I can't wait for the Waldgeist to drop for that reason alone; I think that'll be a game changer at 30-35 SS games.

[Kealios]

One thing to consider when comboing - what's the Jackelope going to change about this? My two cents - having an extra Feral is going to change people's list builds.

Problem: Feral is a (0) spell and the Jackelope can only cast (1) spells of Marcus'. I have used the Jackelope as a backup healer, mostly.

Marcus, to my mind, has a big advantage in being able to get where he needs to go in terms of terrain

Are you referring to Hare? Yes, it is a nice ability, but not staggering. Flying would be better, and using Hare means you are likely escaping and not engaging (unless you were REALLY out of position!). That and you lose out on other nice (0) abilities unless you flip/cheat with the Tome on Wild Heart to get more than 2 abilities.

If he had an aura to give his beasts +1 damage or reactivate, or somesuch neat synergy, I'd be more sold on him. As it is now, even 'Tina can get more damage out of her cats with the Gamin Frozen Heart/Bite of Winter combo than Marcus can...

[AoM]

Howl + Roar = sweet! Check the errata. Nothing like lowering Wp before the kitties get in on the fun.

[Kealios]

About damn time!

Actually, suddenly, Undead, Constructs and Spirits are now immune to the cat Its a WIN if you only fight/target Living models, but a LOSS if you had hoped it would remain Universal.

But, as you say, finally the cat can use its own ability...and benefit from it.

[AoM]

If you're fighting undead, you're at least not getting your tiger sniped as much.

[dboeren]

One thing I wanted to mention specific to starter boxes, Marcus has only four models which is fewer than nearly all other boxes. You need to be careful with them so you don't get ganged up on. He seems like a capable guy, but if you lose any one of your models early it's painful.

[AoM]

yeah, having a pair of models costing 7 stones each, and another costing 8 keeps his numbers down. at least now, the sabertooth has a little more bite.