End of Year TT Thoughts

[Blacks85]

On 12/6/2016 at 6:54 PM, anencephalous said:

Gremlins have lots of good masters. The second place player Riccardo Neri apparently used a bunch of different Gremlin masters (I think I read Ophelia, but I cannot find where I read that), while the third place player just used Zipp.

I wasn't actually comparing us to directly to Gremlins, who have their own play style, I was merely observing that despite being the smallest faction, they are very competitive, unlike TT.

However, since it was bought up, I think the Gremlins are a good example of a faction with a spread of diverse masters. They have summoners, a blaster mage, a shooter, a melee, and multiple  support/control/debuffers. That isn't a bad spread. It certainly covers more master archetypes than TT has.

Pointed here from a friend, just want to add some details to your thoughts.

In UK I've used Ulix, Zoraida and Zipp. Not Ophelia...but she is - with Som'er and Wong - very viable as well. No chance for brewmaster and mah tucket...they need a BUFF, BIG one.

I still believe Gremlins are the strongest faction in this game, reckless is just too strong. Their problem is that they have not enough models...some are very strong and the biggest part is very weak.

You are right, we have different viable master with different viable styles. Unfortunately, the competitive range of viable models outside the "Gremlin-with-a-name bubble" is very short..almost inexistant.

[Kbonn]

Exactly true about gremlins, their internal balance is very poor, all the best models are very obvious.

[cryion]

3 hours ago, Blacks85 said:

Pointed here from a friend, just want to add some details to your thoughts.

In UK I've used Ulix, Zoraida and Zipp. Not Ophelia...but she is - with Som'er and Wong - very viable as well. No chance for brewmaster and mah tucket...they need a BUFF, BIG one.

I still believe Gremlins are the strongest faction in this game, reckless is just too strong. Their problem is that they have not enough models...some are very strong and the biggest part is very weak.

You are right, we have different viable master with different viable styles. Unfortunately, the competitive range of viable models outside the "Gremlin-with-a-name bubble" is very short..almost inexistant.

Not enough models to do what?

I feel like you are making it sound worse than it is. Granted, we have nonsense like the Bushwhackers, but there is quite a selection of good un-named gremlins.

Roosters, Stuffed Piglets, Swine-Cursed, etc.
Even the Taxidermist is not as terrible as you seem to feel it is.

I dunno, Im rather new to Gremlins, but I dont feel like I dont have choices to make when building lists. But what do I know. heh
 

[spooky_squirrel]

I play both 10T and Arcanists. I think Mei Feng is a blast in either crew, and when I play her in 10T her style of play is completely different than when I play her in Arcanists--because her hiring pool is very different. I've seen the Toshiro summoning loop and have been tempted to pick up the puppies to support it, but the aesthetics of Toshiro's sculpt are not appealing to me so it's not something I've fielded yet. So while she is shared, she is very different in my experience.

I do use Vapormancy every time I put Mei Feng on the table. The trigger for Vent Steam itself is worth it, but the Ca 7 attack with blasts is also very useful. It's not Sonnia-level blasting, but it's not something that's going to be stopped by a 3-4 stone peon/minion darting in and engaging Mei Feng.

Grass looking greener on the other side is an easy trap to fall into. For illustration, here's some thoughts on Mei Feng:

Her base box looks the same, regardless of whether hired into Arcanists or 10T. As soon as you start looking at faction upgrades things begin to change. Taking a step further into third wave purchases for her crew (let's face it, first is her box, second wave is the Rail Golem and Mechanized Porkchops) we will see things branch out further.

Mei Feng in 10T does not have access to Large Steam Arachnids or Joss for dropping scrap markers on kills. But she does have access to the Obsidian Oni, who drops scrap markers as a trigger on its attack--not on kills. The Obsidian Oni also gives her crew members access to some healing outside of any that they bring on their own (Kang), provided they have an upgrade attached.
She does not have access to the Mechanical Rider for summoned Railwalk nodes and Scheme running, but she has access to Toshiro to summon Railwalk nodes that attack Wp, can give burning or slow, and can place in base contact with an enemy as a (0) to enhance Mei's non-linear threat, while being on a 40mm base. I'd love to be able to use Komainu in Arcanist Mei crews. The role that the Mechanical Rider fills is highly situational. It seems really good, but it's having to hang back until it has baked-in Tomes for defenses, then it's summoning things and dropping scheme markers. Obsidian Oni can drop scheme markers on their attacks as well, if needed. Not as reliably, but also not as limited.
The 10T 'rider' is one of the things I picked up from the Black Friday sale, and it definitely has utility and a place. Being able to have a minion take an (1) attack action by itself is good, but bonuses for VP? That's amazing. Being able to stack your own deck as a (0) is also a good thing. It does a lot more than project threat, so direct comparisons to Howard Langston are missing out on that. Will I use Yasunori with Mei Feng? Probably not, but only because she's already got a lot of options eating into her available stones that she works better with (like Mechanized Porkchops). I'll happily use Yasunori with my Wild Ones crew, though.
She also does not have access to Howard Langston. Funny thing about for me: I don't use Hank that much. There's work I need done, and he's pricey for something that can get paralyzed/slowed/killed off the table before he has a chance to do the amount of work his Soulstone cost says he should be doing. I put him on the table in games where people are curious what he does, and I put him on the table when there's killy schemes like Hunting Party and Frame For Murder in the pool. He'll look like he's there for either, and my opponent has to guess which of the 3VP he's there for. Instead, she's going to be looking at having several different options in 10T, including the Obsidian Oni I keep bringing up. If I really need something that's hitting that hard, is a construct, and can potentially do a lot of damage, I can bring in the Rail Golem for a stone cheaper and work out if/how I'm going to support its Burning mechanic or if I'm just going to let the boiler build for a turn or two. Sure, there's no decapitation trigger and no nimble, but that (0) Locomotion is a smashing good time. Now imagine it with Recalled Training.

Conversely, in Arcanists she does not have access to Recalled Training (on a Rail Golem during the crux turn.. holy smokes), Katanaka Snipers, 10T Brothers, and other utility pieces from the Ten Thunders. She does not have access to Komainu, which means that she's having to work harder for things that target Wp instead of Df. When I run Mei Feng as an Arcanist and my opponent has 10T Brothers guarding the stash or switching to Monkey Style to affect charge lanes, I've got nothing to reliably dislodge them (Df 7 with is a bear to get through when most of your attacks target Df) baked in.
The number of ruthless models that do other work in-faction for Mei Feng (Arcanist) is depressingly small. In 10T she has access to Obsidian Oni, who can also drop scrap (Railwalk, Komainu summoning, making a model a Construct via Sparks), set things on fire (bonuses on attacks when target is already burning), or drop schemes (path to victory) as part of its attack. It comes up for me, my last game against NB with Arcanists I had to play activation games to try and get something that had a decent damage track to go after the Doppleganger and Beckoner activated so that I wasn't counting on passing the Manipulative checks to deal with them; other control pieces exist that force Wp duels to target or not target someone else. Ruthless means I don't need to do that: the model goes after the target I want, when I want, without having to worry about Manipulative, Terrifying, or other dirty tricks that might be used (especially lock-down effects from Wp based controllers). Having it on a single model that does other things I would have to hire two+ other models in Arcanists to do? Amazing.

[anencephalous]

Quote

In UK I've used Ulix, Zoraida and Zipp. Not Ophelia...

Sorry I got that wrong. Glad to see Ulix getting results in competitive play. Pig swarm deserves to win on aesthetics alone.

@spooky_squirrel

I agree that Mei is different with Arcanists and TT. I have played against Arcanist Mei a few times, and she does have different options. The Arcanist Mei I played had Howard, Joss and Dec Acolytes, and I just remember feeling like I had failed a personal Terror check at the top of every turn. That having been said, she is still the same champion, with the same upgrades, using the same actions and abilities. Arcanist Mei is less different to TT Mei than say, Shenlong is different to Ramos. Yes, they are different to play, but she is not "unique".

I think Mei's biggest problem in Arcanists is not that she is bad, but that other Arcanist masters are so damn good. Colette, Marcus and Ramos (and now Sandeep, as I understand it) are so fantastic, that the others have trouble getting a look in.

I am willing to accept an argument that some of the duel champs are stronger in TT than in the other camp. TT McCabe was probably better than Guild McCabe, at least until the release of the Witchling Thrall, because we had scarier minions to reactivate. TT Mei might well be stronger than Arcanist Mei, because of the summon option. However if you want summons, Arcanists have Ramos, who will spam the table with activations with relative ease.