Inspiring to defend

[Hawkman67609er]

So in malifaux land does the word "action" mean friendly action only? Silly real world English language is screwing me up here but the wording on the "inspire" condition Lady Justice hands out reads "this model gains +flip to Ml and Sh actions" which means enemy Ml and Sh actions too. So yay +flip to defense flips!!!

Page 37 steps to resolving an action

1. Declare Action & Spend AP
2. Perform DUELS
3. Resolve Results

Page 32 step 2 of opposed DUELs

Both models simultaneously flip one card (plus any
cards for Fate Modifiers)

So a friend and I found out the exact ruling and come to a consensus.

Alright so the consensus came and the actual ruling on Lady Justice Inspire according to the rules actually means "this mode gains +flip to the attack flip of its Ml and Sh actions." because of the following listed below.

The defense flip of a model is just an opposed duel, not part of the acting attacking model's action so no +Df flip.

The damage flip would gain +flip if page 47 didnt say "Effects that modify the
damage flip will state that they do so specifically." so since this ability does no state damage flips specifically no +damage flip

Edited September 4, 2015 by Hawkman67609er
Found out the ruling.

[Sackville]

can you tell me the page it says no fate modfiers to the defending model? and isnt that what defensive stance is?

becasue on page 32 it says "Both models simultaneously flip one card (plus any
cards for Fate Modifiers)"

A defending model can add fate modifiers, just not fate modifier that apply to actions. Defensive gives a modifier to Df duels, and a defending model is making a flip as part of a duel, so the modifier is relevant even though the defensive model isn't acting. A modifier to Df actions would be much less useful.

(This is fun but I'm going to have to stop if I can't figure out how to collapse quote trees on this forum. They're getting a little out of hand.)

[Sackville]

roger that 

i just dont understand becasue i dont see that in the rules ill look more for it later sorry for the quote trees

Yeah the quote system here really isn't the best, I can't even figure out how to change the header on a manually added quote block.

 

I see where you coming from now. But inspire doesn't say to actions that this model controls, it says all Ml and Sh actions. Defending or attacking, it doesn't say this model has to be acting to get a modifier. Don't you think you could inspire your crew to hold their shield up higher?

the defending model is still part of the enemy's Sh or ml action

Inspired does (implicitly) say the model has to be acting, because the bonus is to actions. The difference between actions, duels, and flips maybe isn't the most immediately intuitive thing but it's very consistent and sensible once you've got the hang of it. Also, there's only like one model that I can think of in the entire Malifaux line with a shield.

(It took me way to long to successfully wrestle these into two separate quote blocks so I'm gonna call it here. Have fun, dude.)

[Phinn]

First of all, sir, this thread is very difficult to follow. If you are going to answer every post by the same statement all over again, it will discourage people from trying to help you.

I do understand why you feel that the Ability should work as you interpret it. I would love to find a rule that specifically says it doesn't, but sadly haven't found any. Which means that we will have to do this one differently.

Let's take a look at Ophelia's (0) With My Eyes Closed! Tactical Action. It reads: "For the rest of this model's Activation, its Sh Attack Actions gain ." By your logic it would mean that both the Attack Flip that Ophelia performs and the Defense Flip that the target performs gain . What would be a purpouse of such Tactical Action?

Another common issue is Fate Modifiers and Damage Flips. Is the Damage Flip part of the Attack Action? Yes. Step 3 - Resolve Results (after Step 2 - Perform Duels). Would it gain from Ophelia's Tactical Action? No, even though it is a part of the Sh Attack Action. Rules are clear on this one.

Damage and Wounds - The Damage Flip (Malifaux 2E, page 46): Damage flips are often the result of a duel. They do not gain any of the modifiers (Fate or otherwise) that were applied directly to the duel that might have caused the damage flip. Effects that modify the damage flip will state that they do so specifically.

Ophelia's (1) "Rough Riders" Attack Action reads: "This Attack Action gains to the Attack Flip." And even though (0) With My Eyes Closed! doesn't specifically state it, like (1) "Rough Riders" does, only its Attack Flip benefits from .

[Hawkman67609er]

 

First of all, sir, this thread is very difficult to follow. If you are going to answer every post by the same statement all over again, it will discourage people from trying to help you.

I do understand why you feel that the Ability should work as you interpret it. I would love to find a rule that specifically says it doesn't, but sadly haven't found any. Which means that we will have to do this one differently.

Let's take a look at Ophelia's (0) With My Eyes Closed! Tactical Action. It reads: "For the rest of this model's Activation, its Sh Attack Actions gain ." By your logic it would mean that both the Attack Flip that Ophelia performs and the Defense Flip that the target performs gain . What would be a purpouse of such Tactical Action?

Another common issue is Fate Modifiers and Damage Flips. Is the Damage Flip part of the Attack Action? Yes. Step 3 - Resolve Results (after Step 2 - Perform Duels). Would it gain from Ophelia's Tactical Action? No, even though it is a part of the Sh Attack Action. Rules are clear on this one.

Damage and Wounds - The Damage Flip (Malifaux 2E, page 46): Damage flips are often the result of a duel. They do not gain any of the modifiers (Fate or otherwise) that were applied directly to the duel that might have caused the damage flip. Effects that modify the damage flip will state that they do so specifically.

Ophelia's (1) "Rough Riders" Attack Action reads: "This Attack Action gains to the Attack Flip." And even though (0) With My Eyes Closed! doesn't specifically state it, like (1) "Rough Riders" does, only its Attack Flip benefits from .

Thank you sir for helpin me out, I apologize for the chaos, if I ever do another thread it will be wayyy cleaner. This was my first one and I came to a consensus. A friend and I found some stuff in the rules. I have no interest in creating another thread yet until I have another question. But I have been playing malifaux for a long time and never have been stumped like that.

[CapnBloodbeard]

If Lady Justice is performing a Melee attack again, say, von Schill, then LJ is performing a Ml duel while vS is performing a Df duel.

That's why vS doesn't get +1Df if LJ gets +1 Ml (if he didn't then wouldn't that make all modifiers pointless?)

[Hawkman67609er]

How would you  interpret "this model gains +flip to all enemy attack actions"? 

"This model gains +flip to all friendly enemy attack actions"? Haha

[Hawkman67609er]

If someone can show me somewhere in the FAQ & Errata or the rules somewhere to prove me wrong I will give you a cyber kiss.

[Hawkman67609er]

But it doesn't say to Ml or Sh actions that only they are attempting it says all actions, enemy and friendly alike.

[Hawkman67609er]

Defense flip is just as much part of the Ml or Sh action as the attack flip! Don't be prejudice against defense flips! They save your model's lives!

[Hawkman67609er]

Because it's still a Ml or Sh action therefore the inspired model gets a +flip whether it's friendly or enemy action

[Hawkman67609er]

nobody has FAQ or errata or rules on this huh? innnteresting

here page 37 of the malifaux 2e full rulebook

"1. Declare Action & Spend AP
2. Perform Duels (defense or attack flips)
3. Resolve Results"

[Hawkman67609er]

If someone can show me somewhere in the FAQ & Errata or the rules somewhere to prove me wrong I will give you a cyber kiss.

Page 32, Opposed Duels, paragraph 2. "In an opposed duel there is an Attacking model (the model that is acting) and a Defending model (the model that is targeted by the Attack Action).

The rules clearly state that only the attacker is acting, so only the attacker gains any benefit from a positive flip to actions.

EDIT: Even though a Ml or Sh action causes both the attacking and defending models to flip, the bonus from Inspiried will only ever be relevant for an attacking model since the defending model cannot claim a +flip to actions when it's not acting.

I see where you coming from now. But inspire doesn't say to actions that this model controls, it says all Ml and Sh actions. Defending or attacking, it doesn't say this model has to be acting to get a modifier. Don't you think you could inspire your crew to hold their shield up higher?

the defending model is still part of the enemy's Sh or ml action

[Hawkman67609er]

It doesn't say actions this model takes... And the defense flip is required by the Ml or Sh action. 

[Hawkman67609er]

So, lets walk through how an action is performed:

One model declares an action. Whether it's e.g. a Ml action is determined by the stat it adds to its flip. Lets say for the sake of argument that its a Ml action that is resisted by Df. Then it declares a target, e.g. an enemy. Thus, "This model" would take "a Ml action". How do you come from that to the enemy model performing an action? Even if it was, it would be a Df action.

How would you  interpret "this model gains +flip to all enemy attack actions"? 

"This model gains +flip to all friendly enemy attack actions"? Haha

Both of those would make no sense at all. To get a from that wording, you would have to declare an action.

Gaining plus flip to an action makes no sense at all? Well then they should have worded it better. Haha if something says you gain plus flip to an action it needs to specify which action. Or it is implying all actions of that variety.