Neverborn help for a friend

[surly]

I'd like to get into the "problem" with a short battle report from last week.

 

As most week our group met last week to play a few games of Malifaux. I played against an long-time friend of mine who plays Neverborn eclusively and simultaneously is the only Neverborn player in our group, so nobody can give some good advice.

We set up the board with a lot of terrain, standard deployment, with Reconnoiter, Bodyguard, Protect Territory, Vendetta and Power Ritual (I guess, can't really remember for sure tbh).
Thanks to Reconnoiter I chose Ramos  (Shield Upgrade, Arcane Reservoir, Bleeding Edge Tech) and Joss (Open Current, IE), Howard (IE), Mech Rider (IE) and Mobile Toolkit.

He brought Dreamer (Summoning Upgrade, Flight & Draw Upgrade), Teddy (ignore Armor Upgrade), Widow Weaver (Bag), Vasilia, Mr. Tannen and a few Daydreams if I remember correctly.

 

To make things short, he got a really strong hand and summoned 2 Teddies and 1 Stitched on the first turn followed by another Teddy and two Stitched on the second turn with Dreamer. On the third turn Widow Weaver summoned a Teddy and two more Wicked Dolls on the following turns.

As scary as it sounds and may looked on first sight, it didn't really play out that well for him. I pushed forward very aggressively and restricted him into the table corner he set up, which made it easy for me to score 2 points for Reconnoiter on turn 2 and 3 while refusing him to score. Ramos summoned two times 3 spiders on the first two turns while Mech Rider started summoning Metal Gamins on turn 2.

With Ramos and the Gamins it wasn't much of a problem killing a low-life Teddy early on with Magnetize and another one on turn 4.

 

The game was pretty much a stand off whith him looked into one of the table quarters while I surrounded him. He set up web markers to make charging even scarier while I positioned my hard hitters to cover each other.

On turn 3 the stand off breaks and we start engaging each other - to make it short, by turn 5 Ramos, Joss and Howard died while I was able to kill three Teddies in total and all his Stitched and Wicked Dolls. By that time he wasn't able to score any points while my Spiders, Gamin and Mech Rider simply won me the game, even with his master still alive but pretty outnumbered.

 

 

 

 

... and that's basically how every game goes for him. It's not like someone had way better cards (I'd say his hand was a bit better while my flips compensated for it, so imo it was pretty even), but it does always feel like Neverborn are a bit handicapped.

He regularly plays Dreamer, Lilith and Jakob, and tries out a lot of different combinations of miniatures.

As an opponent when looking at his crews it always feels super scary at first sight, but after the first hits are traded it's a lot less frightening.

 

Since neither me nor someone else in our group can give some good advice, I thought I'd ask here.

Neverborn are often refered as the most mobile faction, but beside some obviously great movement tricksters like Lilith, I can't really agree with that. When he looks across the table at my Arcanists, he always gets a bit jealous what they can do and where they can go.

 

Another point where he struggles a bit imo, is the lack of a proper tank. Nekima, Candy, Juju and Teddy can all be scary, but more often than not they're busy not dying.

 

I'm aware there's no simple solution like "play X when this happens and you win", but I thought maybe there are some hidden tricks that I could pass over to him to help him out a bit.

Would be really appreciated

[TimH]

Well I'd say the list he ran there was probably far too heavy on high cost models. As a result his list is ultra heavy on support models and only really has a single Teddy for fighting the early game. If his summons get picked off before regenerating then he will lose a lot.

 

On the 'proper tank' side. Illuminated. For 7 stones they are super tanky. Similarly Depleted are great at creating a temporary tarpit. Waldgeists are armour 2 on a 6 stone model with a 4 inch melee range and portable soft cover.

 

Mobility for the Neverborn shouldnt be compared to Arcanist reactivate shenanigans. Instead consider things like Terror Tots (20 inch movement with the right cards/Lynch) the silurid (move 7 then still able to interact twice) Gupps and similar. Neverborn have several models with lure and the means to exploit it. Vasilia with upgrade can charge a Coryphee into the enemy deployment on first turn.

[Adran]

Looking at the lists and first couple of turns, he should have had 10-11 models out at the scoring point of turn 2. How did he not score Reconnotre?

If you were pushign up agressively I'm surprised that his 4 teddies and Lord Chompybits didn't remove several of your advanced models in turn 2

 

Summoning Teddies and Stiched together is a gamble when facing Ramos and Mech rider, due to magnitism, so it is possible that he should have considered other summons.

 

Big hitting tanks will have you looking at the Mature Nephlim or the Hooded rider, both of whom I would say are simliar to Howard in effect.

[TimH]

I don't think I'd call Mature Neph or Hooded Rider a 'tank'. Both are decently mobile beatsticks with the option to pick up Retributions Eye for Ignoring armour but neither is a model you want to be taking hits.

 

Mature is armour+1 black blood and a low defence, Hooded Rider gets tankier as the game goes on but by his very nature should be avoiding combat till the late game, not tanking hits for the crew. For high cost high damage output 'tanks' the Neverborn only really have Teddy (regen, terrifying 13, impossible to wound but abysmal defence) and Bad Juju (Hard to wound instead of impossible and the option for eternal fiend).

 

Really Neverborn tanking is best in its mid range minions. Also your friend should consider that Neverborn have a lot of capacity for avoiding getting hit in the first place. We have an abundance of terrifying, manipulative and some perfect camo plus terrain generation and an excellent variety of pushes and placements to engage/disengage on favourable terms.

[surly]

Thanks for the replies!

 

Well I'd say the list he ran there was probably far too heavy on high cost models. As a result his list is ultra heavy on support models and only really has a single Teddy for fighting the early game. If his summons get picked off before regenerating then he will lose a lot.

 

On the 'proper tank' side. Illuminated. For 7 stones they are super tanky. Similarly Depleted are great at creating a temporary tarpit. Waldgeists are armour 2 on a 6 stone model with a 4 inch melee range and portable soft cover.

 

Mobility for the Neverborn shouldnt be compared to Arcanist reactivate shenanigans. Instead consider things like Terror Tots (20 inch movement with the right cards/Lynch) the silurid (move 7 then still able to interact twice) Gupps and similar. Neverborn have several models with lure and the means to exploit it. Vasilia with upgrade can charge a Coryphee into the enemy deployment on first turn.

 

True, he once played Illuminated and they performed pretty well. Thanks for pointing them out.

 

I'd don't think that Arcanists movement resolves about reactive but more around pushes and IE. Speaking for myself it just feels like Arcanists can combine so many layers of synergy, that they can pull of some insane tricks without much effort.

At least whenever I watch them across the table, Neverborn move around really well too, but comparing both factions they just feel a bit less "insane"

 

Looking at the lists and first couple of turns, he should have had 10-11 models out at the scoring point of turn 2. How did he not score Reconnotre?

If you were pushign up agressively I'm surprised that his 4 teddies and Lord Chompybits didn't remove several of your advanced models in turn 2

 

Summoning Teddies and Stiched together is a gamble when facing Ramos and Mech rider, due to magnitism, so it is possible that he should have considered other summons.

 

Big hitting tanks will have you looking at the Mature Nephlim or the Hooded rider, both of whom I would say are simliar to Howard in effect.

 

I was basically standing in the middle of the map by turn 2 while he was still in his deployment zone ... since he wanted to summon 3 models on the first turn, he couldn't really move the Dreamer forward and therefore caged himself into the corner.

While Teddies are scary, they become much easier to handle when you have armor and   flips on def thanks to Ramos. Especially when my own crew is in close range of each other, therefore denying sniping single models out without getting hit back.

 

Good point about the summoning though. Looking back it would probably have been the better play to save the high cards for melee and just summon stuff like Coppelius or Lilitu.

 

Mature and Rider he already tried, but imo they just fall into the same category as the others, glascanon.

 

I don't think I'd call Mature Neph or Hooded Rider a 'tank'. Both are decently mobile beatsticks with the option to pick up Retributions Eye for Ignoring armour but neither is a model you want to be taking hits.

 

Mature is armour+1 black blood and a low defence, Hooded Rider gets tankier as the game goes on but by his very nature should be avoiding combat till the late game, not tanking hits for the crew. For high cost high damage output 'tanks' the Neverborn only really have Teddy (regen, terrifying 13, impossible to wound but abysmal defence) and Bad Juju (Hard to wound instead of impossible and the option for eternal fiend).

 

Really Neverborn tanking is best in its mid range minions. Also your friend should consider that Neverborn have a lot of capacity for avoiding getting hit in the first place. We have an abundance of terrifying, manipulative and some perfect camo plus terrain generation and an excellent variety of pushes and placements to engage/disengage on favourable terms.

 

I have the same thinking about Mature and Rider. Teddy and Juju both drop down pretty fast though once they activated and get hit by something with 4 weak damage (Howard, Markus).

Don't get me wrong, they're awesome. But often just putting one of them into a list feels like it's not enough, especially when there's a train of 3-4 hard hitters is coming around.

 

 

 

One thing I'm (as a non-Neverborn player) not sure of are the various supporting options the faction can run - good point TimH.

Looking at his list, Mr. Tannen, Vasilia and Widow Weaver all can't really contribute much in melee. Would be interesting how many such support models you run in a list and how you make them work.

[TimH]

Well Tannen is one I run frequently and if you want Teddies he is needed (seriously though, Redjoker and 13 Masks in turn 1 hand and then one again in turn 2 hand? your friend was lucky on that).

 

I have run a similar list to your friends that was along these lines.

-Dreamer, Pact and Dreams of Pain

-1 Day Dream

-Teddy

-Baby Kade with depression

-Doppelganger

-Tannen

-Beckoner

 

It worked ok but did need some fine tuning. Doppelganger supports the crew but doesn't need to stick with them all game, Depression Kade withTeddy has some nice mobility, major damage and some fun push/pounce/smell fear combos. Beckoner is a reliable lure for setting up charges.

 

In general though I often take 2 terror tots in many lists for scheme running, Doppelganger or Tannen for support and 1-2 Silurids (instead of tots) for things like Turf war, plant explosives or spring the trap.

[D_acolyte]

I tend to run otherworldly on my summoning dreamer, accomplice is great if your summoning 1 model and want to get use out of him. I also tend to take the Teddy ingnoring armor, Widow weaver and 2 day dreams. the rest of the point are dolls, young nephiliam, widow weavers upgrade, or terror tots in any combination.

I relly one teddy and often a summoned Lelu to hold me for a turn or two and they tend to do well at it.

[Adran]

I don't think I'd call Mature Neph or Hooded Rider a 'tank'. Both are decently mobile beatsticks with the option to pick up Retributions Eye for Ignoring armour but neither is a model you want to be taking hits.

 

Mature is armour+1 black blood and a low defence, Hooded Rider gets tankier as the game goes on but by his very nature should be avoiding combat till the late game, not tanking hits for the crew. For high cost high damage output 'tanks' the Neverborn only really have Teddy (regen, terrifying 13, impossible to wound but abysmal defence) and Bad Juju (Hard to wound instead of impossible and the option for eternal fiend).

 

 

Compared to Howard The Mature is 1 Df down and 1 wound down. They share the same terrifying.

He can use his Charge through trigger to get a lot of attacks. Its not as reliable as Nimble, but used well it can be pretty devestating ( I've Charged a pigapult on Turn 1 by careful use of the trigger)

 

The Rider doesn't have the armour, but does have "rider armour" which will probably protect slightly more than Armor over the course of a game. By Turn 2 is should  be takign less damage than Howard would

It doesn't get Flurry, and will probably only get the extra movement on turns 2,3 and 4 (5 is likely to be the multi attack (0)). It can put a similar amount of Damage out as Howard, but is relying on the trigger to get up to those levels.

 

 

I may well have a different view of tank to you. I think these two are more likely to survive a flurrying Howard than anything else in faction.

Don't get  me wrong, I don't want them to face a Flurrying Howard, but they do at least have a chance of living. (Mature probably also has best chance of killing Howard as well)

I prefer Armor to Hard to wound in my "tank", as in most games I play the damage is on a negative flip anyway.

[BlitzMonkey]

I am very new as well, but it sounds like he is not playing to (what I see as) the strengths of Neverborn.  I personally wouldn't have spent ALL of turn 1 summoning.  It sounds like he needed to move up more.  

[D_acolyte]

I agree move, summon, reduce waking and empty night to push teddy then I accomplice the summon is how I do always do my first turn with the Dreamer unless it is close deployment.

[Deluge]

 

To make things short, he got a really strong hand and summoned 2 Teddies and 1 Stitched on the first turn followed by another Teddy and two Stitched on the second turn with Dreamer. 

 

Colour me curious, how did the Dreamer manage to Summon A Teddy let alone this many at the start of the game? I know that the Widow Weaver can with an 11 and 4 Scrap/Corpse Counters but that would require 16 markers at 8 per turn?

[D_acolyte]

you need to activate Tannen and do leave it to luck, then when the Dreamer activates the cards he flips must be a 13 of mask or a red joker as that would give him the 21 he needs for a Teddy.

Leave it to luck give all masks flipped with in 6 +2 to there number and all tomes flipped a -2 to there number. It is a stupidly lucky bet. Though I do not have the card on me it might also work with cheating I just remembered it specifically saying flipped.

[Adran]

Colour me curious, how did the Dreamer manage to Summon A Teddy let alone this many at the start of the game? I know that the Widow Weaver can with an 11 and 4 Scrap/Corpse Counters but that would require 16 markers at 8 per turn?

Mr Tannen with the Leave it to luck action gives +2 to  and -2 to  . Allows Dreamer to summon a teddy with the 13  (Making it a 15  ) and the red Joker (Making it a 16  )

[TimH]

Played or Flipped so it does work with cheated cards.

[Deluge]

you need to activate Tannen and do leave it to luck, then when the Dreamer activates the cards he flips must be a 13 of mask or a red joker as that would give him the 21 he needs for a Teddy.

Leave it to luck give all masks flipped with in 6 +2 to there number and all tomes flipped a -2 to there number. It is a stupidly lucky bet. Though I do not have the card on me it might also work with cheating I just remembered it specifically saying flipped.

 

 

Mr Tannen with the Leave it to luck action gives +2 to  and -2 to  . Allows Dreamer to summon a teddy with the 13  (Making it a 15  ) and the red Joker (Making it a 16  )

Thanks for the clarification, looks like I need another Mr Tannen

[D_acolyte]

It is nice first turn to get an extra teddy out but that teddy will be really easy to kill till it activates, hence why I take otherworldly for accomplice and I tend to keep my waking at 1 or 0, that way what ever I do summon heals 2-3 points plus what ever it heals it self for.