Wong's Lightning Jump and Kirai's Malevolence

[DocSchlock]

This came up in a tournament a bit ago.

Wong uses Lightning Jump targeting a Flesh Construct in base to base with Kirai.
 

(1) Lightning Jump (Ca 7tomes / TN: 13tomes / Rst: Df / Rg: (gun icon)10): Target suffers

2/3bb/5bbb damage. This model flips a card which may not be cheated for every

model within p3 of the target. All models which receive a Crow suffer 2 damage.

Wong hits and flips for damage, getting severe - 5 with three blast markers. The markers are placed, and Kirai is damaged but not killed. Does Kirai use Malevolence now, or does she wait for Wong to perform the pulse damage flip in the action?

Malevolence: After a friendly Living or Undead

model within a6 suffers damage from an

enemy Attack Action, this model may discard a

Soulstone or a card to summon Ikiryo into base

contact with the Attacking model.

Way I ruled it:
Since "After ... suffers damage" is not a timing as defined in the rulebook ("after damaging" is not the same as "after ... suffers damage"), the ability must occur at the earliest possible time, so it would happen after the damage flip / application but before the pulse damage, all inside Step 5.

How do other people play it? Is there a solid counter-argument to the above (like if Justin said "after ... suffers damage" does have the same timing)?
 

[DocSchlock]

 

So to sum up, do you resolve all of the effects of an Attack Action against all of the models that would be affected before checking for defenders abilities like Malevolence or do you resolve each effect on a model, then check for abilities and then check to see if its killed and then move onto the next model and so on.    

That's the crux. Thanks for your well-thought-out contributions.

I appreciate everyone chiming in. I think we've come to an impasse though.

Always great to see a healthy debate.

[AoS]

I know that when you apply the blast damage, the attacker model can choose the order in which the affected models resolve the blast effect, but there is no rules for pulses or any other effect from an action.

 

But we have some rules for abilities, so I would say that Wong does the damage from the attack, apply the blasts, then the pulse, and then the malevolence if Lost Love is still alive.

 

I can't find this order in the rulebook.

 

But this came up to me:

 

If we imagine that the pulse came from an "after damaging trigger", we know that the Malevolence ability is resolved after damaging. This trigger would be resolved before Malevolence. (page 51).

 

But the "after damaging trigger" would be resolved after all the effects from the action which didn't came up from another trigger.

 

In this imaginary case, Attack action > after damaging trigger, (pulse) > Malevolence

 

I think this means that we have to resolve all the attack action effects before resolve Malevolence.

 

So I think this is a point to think that you can't resolve Malevolence before any other attacks affects which didn't came up from a trigger, are resolved.

 

 

do I have a point, or am I just getting crazy with Malifaux timing?  

[Adran]

Lets try and cut this back to something Simpler.

If we are looking at the Ability Armor +1, then we know that this would apply to every source that dealt damage to it. Armour would happen from the blast damage and from the pulse damage.

 

Likewise, Black blood would happen both times. (all models without black blood within  1 suffer 1 daamge when this model suffers damage)

 

So from that malevolence should  be able to  happen each time.  as it is after a model suffers damage. And its suffering damage multiple times.

So each time a mode suffers damage, we go through a chain of things related to that individual damage before going onto the next model. This includes abilities.

 see the General Timing rules on pg. 46 of the Core Rulebook:

1) The Acting model resolves its Abilities

2) The Defending model resolves its Abilities

3) Any models controlled by the first player resolve their Abilities (in an order of the player’s choosing)

4) Any models controlled by the second player resolve their Abilities (in an order of the player’s choosing)

 

 

Edited to remove incorrect statement,

[AoS]

 

Likewise, Black blood would happen both times. (all models without black blood within   1 suffer 1 daamge when this model suffers damage)

 

So from that malevolence can happen each time as it has the same timing as Black blood (when a model suffers damage) (it just doesn't have to be the model that suffers damage).

(Malevolence: After a friendly Living or Undead model within a6 suffers damage from an enemy Attack Action, this model may discard a Soulstone or a card to summon Ikiryo into base contact with the Attacking model)

 

 

Is not the same timing "when suffering damage" than "after suffering damage" I think

[Adran]

Is not the same timing "when suffering damage" than "after suffering damage" I think

You're right, when suffering and after suffering are not the same time. I really must read what I copy when I'm using it to get timing right.

 

But I think the rest of the point should still stand.

[DocSchlock]

As stated in the new FAQ, my initial assumption was correct. Thanks everyone for participating and thanks Justin for answering that one.