Road Kill Scholar vs Punctured Tank

[Csonti]

So a Freikorps Specialist is on the last wound and have some Poison on it. McM is nearby with Moonlighting Upgrade. How is the order resolved between Punctured Tank and the summoning of a dog from Road Kill Scholar:

 

1. In case the Specialist dies in his own Activation due to Catalyst?

2. In case he dies during the Upkeep Phase?

 

First Player could be either McM or the Specialist's crew if that makes a difference.

[DocSchlock]

Punctured Tank: "When this model is killed, all models in  3 gain the Burning +2 Condition."

Road Kill Scholar: "If a Living or Undead model within 8 is killed by the Poison Condition, this model may summon one Canine Remains into base contact with that model before it is removed, no Corpse Markers are placed."

These appear to go off at the same time, though Road Kill Scholar ideally would have been written with a "when" instead of "if", as "if" is not a timing.

No matter what, for 1, Punctured Tank will go first, since the Specialist is the acting model.

For 2, the First Player's effects are resolved first, so if McMourning was first, the dog would be summoned before the tanks explode. If the Specialist was first, the Tanks would blow before the dog appeared.

If these timings are different, Tanks goes first, since "when" comes before "after" as defined in the 1/1/2015 FAQ.

 

[Csonti]

Punctured Tank: "When this model is killed, all models in  3 gain the Burning +2 Condition."

Road Kill Scholar: "If a Living or Undead model within 8 is killed by the Poison Condition, this model may summon one Canine Remains into base contact with that model before it is removed, no Corpse Markers are placed."

These appear to go off at the same time, though Road Kill Scholar ideally would have been written with a "when" instead of "if", as "if" is not a timing.

Yeah, my first and key problem is the timing issue. It is not clear to me what is the intent here.

 

No matter what, for 1, Punctured Tank will go first, since the Specialist is the acting model.

I'm not so sure about this one. Acting model is not = the model currently playing his activation.

 

 

In an Opposed Duel there is an Attacking model (the model that is acting) and a Defending model (the model that is targeted by the Attack Action). 

 

This is from small rulebook p 25. and I found no other reference about who is actually an Active model. The phrase usually comes out during Duels and Actions but nothing connects it to the Activation itself. Which is all good since during an Obeyed model's Action that model becomes the Acting model during another model's Activation.

 

Damage from Catalyst doesn't require any kind of Action or Duel so I suppose if Punctured Tank and Road Kill Scholar happen at the same time we should resolve them according to who was the First Player.

 

For 2, the First Player's effects are resolved first, so if McMourning was first, the dog would be summoned before the tanks explode. If the Specialist was first, the Tanks would blow before the dog appeared.

 

This was my logic too but here I stumbled into an interesting problem. Let's say McM was the First Player so the Tank explodes after every model in McM's crew resolved its end turn effects like Poison, Burning etc. Next comes the Specialist and dies from poison. A dog is summoned and then the tank blows up giving the dog Burning +2. And now what?

 

Do you resolve the Burning on the dog? It is part of the McM crew that was already checked in this step for these kind of conditions. And the same question can be asked about the other models who happened to be too close to the Specialist when he died. Do they suffer damage immediately? Or maybe they carry over their condition to the next round?

 

If these timings are different, Tanks goes first, since "when" comes before "after" as defined in the 1/1/2015 FAQ.

 

Yeah, that would be an easier solution but first it is not clear right now, second the question of how to resolve the case when a model gets Burning during the Upkeep step after it was checked for these kind of conditions still hangs in the air.

 

Thanks for taking your time to answer my question!

[The Godlyness]

I would to to point out that "acting" model is the model taking the action. I quoted like 4 different pages where it is at.

The upkeep step has not ended so that burning is going to be resolved. How well I postulate that it would go back to first player. But no clear answer. But what is clear is that it will resolve before that step is ended.

Also my 2 cents on the "if killed" is this: if killed = after killed. Reasoning. Most things that summon from killing say "after killing summon model x before removing ...." for instance the trigger on moonlighting witching handler. Datsu ba. Course those are are triggers and road kill is an a ability. But just wanted to let you know my reasoning.

[Csonti]

These interpretations are in line with my assumptions but as you wrote: not clear. Until official confirmation I would also play like you described.

[DocSchlock]

 

 

I'm not so sure about this one. Acting model is not = the model currently playing his activation.

 

The Acting Model is clearly the model who is 1) taking an Action or 2) if 1 is not applicable, has the current Activation. Not all timings have Actions associated, which is why the Specialist is the Acting Model at the beginning of his own Activation in the instance of Catalyst and Punctured Tanks. Since this is not a game-defined term, we must use common English and sense: is a model who is currently doing something not acting?

In the case of Actions, the model undertaking the current Action is the Acting Model in all interpretations. If there is no action, the model who is undergoing the current Activation is the Acting Model. This works for Obey and everything else.

 

 

 

The upkeep step has not ended so that burning is going to be resolved. 

Correct. The rules for resolving effects tell us the First Player resolves effects first. If a First Player model gains an effect that needs resolved, resolution will pass back to the First Player after resolving the current effect, since they must resolve their effects before others. This is fully supported by the rules as written, if not explicitly pointed out.

What needs FAQ'd is the timing of Road Kill Scholar. "If" is not a timing, but as Godlyness pointed out (and I now agree on), summons are usually "after", so I'd rule it as that until clarified.

[Csonti]

The Acting Model is clearly the model who is 1) taking an Action or 2) if 1 is not applicable, has the current Activation. Not all timings have Actions associated, which is why the Specialist is the Acting Model at the beginning of his own Activation in the instance of Catalyst and Punctured Tanks. Since this is not a game-defined term, we must use common English and sense: is a model who is currently doing something not acting?

In the case of Actions, the model undertaking the current Action is the Acting Model in all interpretations. If there is no action, the model who is undergoing the current Activation is the Acting Model. This works for Obey and everything else.

 

I see your logic but still not convinced. The term of "acting model" is firmly tied to Opposed Duels and Attack and Tactical Actions in the rulebook. My stance is: if they wanted to extend this, they would most probably add a simple sentence about that somewhere. I'm aware that many other systems use a similar approach as you describe but that is clearly written down in those rules.

Btw I found a counter-example (Kirai's Feast trigger) regarding the possible "general" timing of summons from killing: 

 

Devour Soul: When this model is killed, the opposing player may summon a Gaki into base contact with this model.

 

Although this is from the beta pdf and I don't have the card at hand, so maybe this was changed before printing.

[Bengt]

 Although this is from the beta pdf and I don't have the card at hand, so maybe this was changed before printing.

It's still "when" in Crossroads. But it may specifically be "when" to prevent getting the Gaki on the same Attack that applies the Condition (you get the Condition from an "after" trigger). So it may not be a good example.

[Myyrä]

My personal theory is that there isn't too much thought put in abilities in terms of whether they say if/when/after/whatever.

[DocSchlock]

 

 

I see your logic but still not convinced. The term of "acting model" is firmly tied to Opposed Duels and Attack and Tactical Actions in the rulebook. My stance is: if they wanted to extend this, they would most probably add a simple sentence about that somewhere. I'm aware that many other systems use a similar approach as you describe but that is clearly written down in those rules.

I fully admit I may be wrong, that's just how we've interpreted it recently in my neck of the woods. "Acting model" probably needs an FAQ.

Road Kill Scholar definitely does as well.