On the Table versus Not In Play

[sharpobjects]

I recently played Kirai against a Lady J crew that of course had a bunch of Death Marshall's. There was a lot of burying going on and I have a few questions as a result.

 

Page 47 states that when a model is buried it does not count as "In Play" and is removed from play and usually set on its stat card as a reminder.

 

Page 51 states that when summoning a model a crew may never exceed a model's rare limit. If, for example, an Action would summon a Rare 1 model into a Crew when the Crew already has a copy of that model on the table, the effect that summons the model fails. 

 

So my question is, when a Rare 1 model is buried and not in play is it still considered on the table? If the Ikiryo is buried can another one be summoned through Kirai's Malevolence ability?

 

Also, can you end the cursed object condition from a buried model to score a VP at the end of a given turn? Page 47 states that buried models still process conditions and other effects that happen at the end of the turn such as burning and poison. I wasn't sure if this also meant VP scoring conditions on a model that is not considered "in play". 

[Sevorin]

 Yes to cursed object. 

 

 As for the first part, Im pretty sure that even though a model is buried it is still considered in the game (or on the table), just not in play. I think this is one of those situations where things are worded two different ways, but still mean the same thing (such as towards vs directly towards). 

 

 How else could void wretches still attack buried models, if they weren't "in game".

[sharpobjects]

Well the void wretches can heal and attack models that are buried because they have specific action on their card that allows them to do so. Normal rules do not permit models to attack buried models. The rules tell us that a standard rule can be disregard by the models printed actions or abilities.  

 

After re reading my own question a few more times I am wondering if the rule from page 51 regarding summoning means if you summoned a rare 1 model into your crew, its a part of your crew regardless if its buried or not. 

 

We played it that Kirai could not bring in another Ikiryo as long as one was buried. I was just looking for clarification for when I have to explain it to someone new to the game. The in play, not in play and on the table, not on the table seemed a bit confusing and started to remind me of 1.5 a bit. 

 

My experience thus far against Death Marshals has seen them using their bury action to bury their own models and move them around. This was my first game in M2E where I had an opponent using it as more of an offensive weapon so it brought out some questions. 

[Sevorin]

 Yup. The void wretch statement was just an example to show that the models are still "in game". Conditions affect buried, void wretch attacks affect buried, as well as Karina, all which tell me buried models are still "in game" and subject to the summoning restrictions.

[Csonti]

 

A Crew may never exceed a model's Rare limit through summoning. If, for example, an Action would summon a Rare 1 model into a Crew when the Crew already has a copy of that model on the table, the effect that summons the model fails.

 

I underlined the relevant part of the rule. This sentence must be applied in regard of all cases. The second part of the paragraph is just an example therefore it is not relevant how is it worded. You can just as easily delete that sentence and the rules would be still the same.

[sharpobjects]

Fair enough.

 

oh, and Justin go to bed already. Don't think I didn't notice your "like" come in after 1:11AM

[sharpobjects]

Quoted from Justin in this thread http://wyrd-games.net/community/topic/101932-tara-bomb-doesnt-work/?p=739405

 

Unless an action/ability/whatever specifies that it accounts for models not in play, then it doesn't.

 

"In play" is implied in pretty much all rules text, and spelled out in a few just to make things absolutely clear.

 

 

There have been several threads recently regarding schemes not being able to be processed on models that are buried because they are "not in play". Schemes such as Distract, Cursed Object, Assassinate etc do not specify in their description that the model needs to be "in play" to score. 

 

Justin clarified above that "in play" is implied in pretty much all the rules text unless something specifically accounts for a model "not in play". 

 

If we added the implied "in play" to the sentence on page 51 regarding summoning where it states a crew may never exceed a models rare limit through summoning "in play" then a buried model would not stop another copy from being summoned "in play" since the buried model is "not in play". 

 

I don't see how we can have it both ways with this "in play" and "not in play"(buried). It has been recently clarified in several threads that you cannot score vp against models buried because they are "not in play" and it is "implied" that all models need to be "in play" in order score vp against them then the same logic should dictate that the rarity of a model only exists with regards to models "in play". 

 

The summoning action or rule does not specify that it accounts for models "not in play". The rule that explains Rare does not specify that it accounts for models "not in play". There fore since "in play" is always implied then a models rare limit is implied to models "in play".

[Justin]

Well, for one, the only official rules text comes from the rules themselves and the FAQ/errata.

 

In the post in question I was referring to Actions and Abilities on models, although I should have been more clear about that.

 

If we added "in play" to ALL rules text, think about how the buried section would read. Buried models would be in play, but...not in play?

 

I should have been more clear. Or just stayed out of it.

[The Godlyness]

Quoted from Justin in this thread http://wyrd-games.net/community/topic/101932-tara-bomb-doesnt-work/?p=739405

 

Unless an action/ability/whatever specifies that it accounts for models not in play, then it doesn't.

 

"In play" is implied in pretty much all rules text, and spelled out in a few just to make things absolutely clear.

 

 

There have been several threads recently regarding schemes not being able to be processed on models that are buried because they are "not in play". Schemes such as Distract, Cursed Object, Assassinate etc do not specify in their description that the model needs to be "in play" to score. 

 

Justin clarified above that "in play" is implied in pretty much all the rules text unless something specifically accounts for a model "not in play". 

 

If we added the implied "in play" to the sentence on page 51 regarding summoning where it states a crew may never exceed a models rare limit through summoning "in play" then a buried model would not stop another copy from being summoned "in play" since the buried model is "not in play". 

 

I don't see how we can have it both ways with this "in play" and "not in play"(buried). It has been recently clarified in several threads that you cannot score vp against models buried because they are "not in play" and it is "implied" that all models need to be "in play" in order score vp against them then the same logic should dictate that the rarity of a model only exists with regards to models "in play". 

 

The summoning action or rule does not specify that it accounts for models "not in play". The rule that explains Rare does not specify that it accounts for models "not in play". There fore since "in play" is always implied then a models rare limit is implied to models "in play".

Summoned says crew. Has nothing to do with in play or not in play. Just that they are still part of the game. So before someone says I guess my bag of models counts Don't be that guy. Once a model is killed or otherwise removed from the game. (Not from play) They are no longer part of your crew.

Is cursed object a condition. Why yes it is says so right here. What's this models that are buried process condtions. Well I guess I still score vp from buried models.

On Tara I guess to make it 100% clear it would have to say after all friendly models in play have activated. But this is for the hard headed people. If all friendly models that could activate do then she reactivates. When Justin responded it's implied. Which Untill it's faqed errated it's only his opinion but it's common sense to think that this is how it should work. And has worked and will forever work.

[Math Mathonwy]

It's rather bizarre that you think it's utterly intuitive that all models' special rules have an implied "in play" in them while all other rules don't when this hasn't been spelled out anywhere except in that one edited post by Justin...